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#1 joseppe

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 11:48 PM

Ok ill start off by saying im pretty new so im still learning been here afew months but i find it strange you can be a black belt with pretty bad secondaries in BJJ, im guessing that works for all primaries? Wouldnt it be better to cap off primaries in relation to their specific secondaries? Im hoping im totally missing the point & will be corrected lol


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#2 aylib

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 11:52 PM

Nope, you can definitely be sensational or elite in primaries and pretty bad in secondaries; pretty much all of the elites in MT have shit elbows and knees, it it's not limited to MT and knees/elbows only.

There are a ton of brown/black belts with no subs, for example.
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#3 joseppe

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 11:59 PM

Nope, you can definitely be sensational or elite in primaries and pretty bad in secondaries; pretty much all of the elites in MT have shit elbows and knees, it it's not limited to MT and knees/elbows only.

There are a ton of brown/black belts with no subs, for example.

Thats my point being black belt with pretty shitty secondaries for that primary is abit meh if you ask me. A cap would be more realistic


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#4 aylib

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:10 AM

I agree.
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#5 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:17 AM

I get that looking at your opp fights is a big part but nah im not cool with someone being black belt with shiity secs but hey im glad im not the only one


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#6 JDV916

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:09 AM

Definetly believe you shouldn't be a black belt with a 1 in sub offense. Literally makes no sense, a black belt knows how to slap on subs.
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#7 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:23 AM

Definetly believe you shouldn't be a black belt with a 1 in sub offense. Literally makes no sense, a black belt knows how to slap on subs.

Yep no sense at all thats why i brought it up


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#8 ovoxo

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:30 AM

http://www.mmatycoon...=60569&p=838893

Too lazy to post it again haha
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#9 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:35 AM

http://www.mmatycoon...=60569&p=838893

Too lazy to post it again haha

Maybe they never saw it lol. Its a genuine question as i said im pretty new but its one thing that popped out at me straight away after only picking up 1 or 2 new decent FAs, It just seems very unbalanced either way


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#10 ovoxo

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:46 AM

It bothers you when you join the game, indeed. But it kinda brings balance to the game because if there was huge primary skill difference between fighters, most fights would end pretty fast. Think of it that secondaries determine the type of a fighter - striker grappler etc. Everyone at top level should have at least exceptional in all primaries, so it shouldnt be used as a criteria to determine fighter style.
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#11 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:03 AM

It bothers you when you join the game, indeed. But it kinda brings balance to the game because if there was huge primary skill difference between fighters, most fights would end pretty fast. Think of it that secondaries determine the type of a fighter - striker grappler etc. Everyone at top level should have at least exceptional in all primaries, so it shouldnt be used as a criteria to determine fighter style.

Yes im new but still it shouldnt be possible to be elite black belt with shit secondaries. It wouldnt be a huge primary difference it would be fighter x is elite at x but good at y. A black belt who has 3 in subs should not be black belt in any terms lol


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#12 Ikkitakeda

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:12 AM

Ok ill start off by saying im pretty new so im still learning been here afew months but i find it strange you can be a black belt with pretty bad secondaries in BJJ, im guessing that works for all primaries? Wouldnt it be better to cap off primaries in relation to their specific secondaries? Im hoping im totally missing the point & will be corrected lol

My understanding the way it works is it works hand in hand. Like levels with in levels. So if primary guy with a white belt in bjj and is 12/wonderful in wrestling but has 12/wonderful in submission and defensive grappling faces a black belt in bjj with a 1 wrestling but a 4 and 5 in submissions and grappling would come out to pretty close to even in grappling. I'm not exactly sure how accurate this statement is, but just an example that grappling has more than 1 primary that works with the secondaries and that effectiveness of the secondaries role also is determined by the primary. So while they work hand and hand they don't have to be on the same level. Like when Edie Bravo was the first American brown belt to win a major grappling tournament that usually is won by black belts. Should the black belts secondaries be better than a brown belt? Yes, but if the brown belt has much greater secondaries than the black belt he might be on an actual higher level than the black belt.

Also like take the strikers in the game that want to start off with either a 1 wrestling and 12 in takedown defense, or a 1 in boxing and 1 mt with high secondaries in either kick or punch, striking defense, and 12 in wrestling with and a 12 in takedown defense to avoid the takedown. While the striker with 1 wrestling and 12 in takedown defense has really good takedown defense for a complete beginner in wrestling and probably has some really good stand up, but that second striker with a 12 in wrestling and 12 in takedown and probably only has a 1 in takedown offense could still takedown that other striker even though he probably isn't going to try. More than likely if they both fight it's going to stay on the feet as neither is going to try and takedown the other and the second striker is going to lose, but if he tried he would more than likely get it.


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#13 ovoxo

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:14 AM

Ok, I will try to explain it for third time with simple words.

If your striker has blue belt, every grappler would destroy him on ground, no matter if he has high defensive grappling. This is how game engine works. If your grappler has no striking, every striker would KO him in seconds.

Do you want to play a game where every fight should be decided by first 2-3 rolls on takedown attempts?
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#14 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:18 AM

Ok, I will try to explain it for third time with simple words.

If your striker has blue belt, every grappler would destroy him on ground, no matter if he has high defensive grappling. This is how game engine works. If your grappler has no striking, every striker would KO him in seconds.

Do you want to play a game where every fight should be decided by first 2-3 rolls on takedown attempts?

No need to be a dick about it lol

 

As i said im a newbie & from afar it doesnt make sense but thank you i do get your point


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#15 ovoxo

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:21 AM

In terms of realism it doesnt makes sense, but I doubt that Mike is going to bring such major changes to the engine. As I said, ignore the primary skills when judging a fighter's style. Think of them as something needed for every fighter to compete.
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#16 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:27 AM

In terms of realism it doesnt makes sense, but I doubt that Mike is going to bring such major changes to the engine. As I said, ignore the primary skills when judging a fighter's style. Think of them as something needed for every fighter to compete.

It shouldnt be a major change tho should it or am i completly missing the point?

 

How can you ignore the primary skill of an opponent? Yes i get you can view his past fights but who says that actually shows what hes worth if lets say hes a good striker & been facing ok strikers but in reality hes a sub specialist?

 

If someone is good in a certain skill then they should be good in the primary, ive never known a shit ground guy be given a black belt for example. That seems to me abig flaw in the game?


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#17 imcool

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:34 AM

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=900149

An example of a fight which shows primary vs secondary skill significance.  Granted Heyman forgot to set sliders, but Abdullaev landed a high percentage regardless, even though he's completely outmatched on striking primaries.


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#18 ovoxo

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:35 AM

Having fighters with 1 elite primary(specialization) and capping the other disciplines would require a complete engine rewrite. Again(4th time) I will say that the current engine formulas wouldn't work properly if there is huge difference between primaries.

About ignoring the opponent's fighter primaries when judging his style i was talking about top level fighters, where every fighter is exceptional/sensational/elite in all primaries. You shouldn't ignore them when thinking of a gameplan for a fight.

A black belt in the game might be crap with subs but he might be great with transitions, def grappling, escapes - have a great defense on the ground.
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#19 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:43 AM

Having fighters with 1 elite primary(specialization) and capping the other disciplines would require a complete engine rewrite. Again(4th time) I will say that the current engine formulas wouldn't work properly if there is huge difference between primaries.

About ignoring the opponent's fighter primaries when judging his style i was talking about top level fighters, where every fighter is exceptional/sensational/elite in all primaries. You shouldn't ignore them when thinking of a gameplan for a fight.

A black belt in the game might be crap with subs but he might be great with transitions, def grappling, escapes - have a great defense on the ground.

Im not old enough in game to say otherwise so ill take your word for it.

 

It shouldnt be about when a guy gets to the top level it should be all levels which from what i see the low levels there is an obvs difference in primaries & i believe that is better for the game.

 

Maybe i dont know what im talking about i just thought from a newbie view it seemed abit flawed that the top end is like it is.

 

Maybe its asking abit much as its a game & everything cant be perfect but hey its worthy asking the questions so again thanks for expalining OVOXO


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#20 joseppe

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:46 AM

I get its a game engine & game terms but aslong as you get what im saying or trying to say then its all good lol

 

Again ive not been here that long but that struck me as abit off, maybe in ayears time ill be like ah yeah i get it all lol


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