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a note to mike tycoon


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Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:44 PM

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this was a message that i wrote with the intentions of sending to mike. but it got long, so it can be his option to read it or not




hey mike, i think that you need to delete your account and start over with a brand new one, and make an honest effort to play competitively. i think what has happened is that you are still playing as an older player and it narrows your scope on things. it makes you naive to a newer players perspective. i feel i've got the right to say that because i was the same way. when i was an older manager i truly had no idea just how disheartening this game is for new players. honestly i didnt have a clue. but now that i've restarted my entire perspective has changed.

i've spent six months playing as a new manager and i've went from having a deep passion for the quality of this game, to a strong dislike for how this game functions. i can set here and try to explain my perspective on things. but i think that you'll never truly have a feel for where im coming from until you experience it for yourself.

in my opinion, new player enjoyment should be the #1 goal. simply because if there's no enjoyment factor for the new players then there's not gonna be any older players around to enjoy it. this game feeds off of young and old players equally. there value to the game is a stale mate. this game truly is a great experience as an older player. the game is incredidly rewarding as an established manager. most everyone will agree to that. but i can guarantee you that you'll have a much harder time finding younger managers that will agree to the same thing. it's just not the case.

the goal should be to make the game enjoyable over the entire spectrum. instead of only after you've played the game for 2 years. ppl just wont wait that long. hell, i know first hand how enjoyable this game can be once you've put your time in. but even knowing that, im on the verge of bailing, simply because the wait isnt seeming to be worth it.....

i've been playing with a stable of new fighters and training in public gyms for 6 months now and im absolutely disgusted with how my fighters have progressed. i know what the older managers fighters look like, and i know that my fighters arent close to that. but at the same time, i understand that your goal is to bring the overall total skill levels of the older fighter down a bit. i get that. but by slowing fighter growth isnt the key. all that you've done by nerfing fighters learning abilities is make a boring game for young and old.


i know that you didnt directly nerf learning speed, but the changes that have been made have made that happen. an example of where the system fails: you can take a fight. lose. train for a month, and enter into your next fight and show little to no skill improvement from the fight before...that's a problem in my opinion. it takes away almost all optimism. there needs to be at least SOME signs of improvements from fighters in between fights. not only because it keeps managers logging in daily to see fighter progression. but also because it gives optimism that a loss early on, wont neccassarily mean a loss down the road.

some managers just dont and will never be good with the sliders. they understand and admit to that. so in order to bridge the gap for those managers, skills is what does it. skills, whether you want to believe it or not, is what makes this game go. skills are what creates passion for ppl. skills are what creates the bond between fighter and manager. skills are what creates the butterflies for an upcoming fight. skills are what manufactures hope and the optimism that your luck is going to change. that goes for both young AND old. skills are what allows managers to put yestarday behind them and allows them to be excited about the oppurtunity of tomarrow.

by trying to limit the skills or slowing the growth of a fighter, you're limiting how excited ppl can be about mmatycoon in general. it's honestly just the facts. everything in life is pshycological and has a pshycological effect. you need to always ensure that the things that you do creates a postitive pshycological emotion for ppl. that's the recipe for success with anything. whether it's getting somebody to buy your product, vote for you in an election, hang around you at a party, or simply say hello to you on the street. you've got to always ensure that the things that you do put other ppl into a happy/comforting state of mind. that's how you get ppl to want to follow you, or to just simply be around you. in this case, that's how you get ppl to want to play mmatycoon. allow them to enjoy themselves as much as possible on the thrills of the game - maximize the things that ppl love the most about the game. watching fighter growth is a key factor in this games success in my opinion...


but im not sure what your overall goal is with the game? it may be different from what i believe it to be, or think it should be? but im certain that your goal isnt to have a stagnation effect from fighters. at least i hope it isnt. but that's kind of the feeling that i think has been created. you've always made really well thought out changes to the game in my opinion. much better than what i could have ever done. but at the current moment, there's nothing incredible going on in the game that just reaches out and grabs new players. the game i feel like is initially intriguing enough to get ppl to come back. but nothing that happens frequently enough to really take a hold of ppl and keep them on the edge of their seat. that's just my honest opinion.

i have to go back to the mice in a maze theory. you dont have to give much, but you do have to give it just a little bit of cheese occasionally. or else it wont keep running the maze. same way with this game. i get it's a slow paced game. i've played for almost 3 years now. so i can handle the pace of a game of this type. but at some point, if there's continually less and less cheese at the end of the maze, then we'll have to go off in search of new cheese. and i dont mean that as a threat to say "hey, make the game the way i want". it's just me saying, "hey mike, i've played this game for a long time. i've grown to love it. but now can feel it slipping away" - i feel like i've got to make at least SOME effort to throw something out there that can make the game more enjoyable from my own perspective. from my perspective, i think that the game really shines at the upper levels, when you can compete with good skilled fighters in a battle of wits via sliders and skill sets. that's where this game excells. but the only players that are getting to take part in that greatness are the ones that have been apart of the game for a long time.

so i want to make a push to you in hopes that you'll do something to allow us younger managers to take part in that fun maybe just a little bit quicker. i know what this game can offer in terms of enjoyment. but in my opinion, it's foolish to think ppl will play for years before getting to experience it

in the end, i thought that the basis of the game was "styles make fights". the game flourished under that thought. i sure would love to see it get back down to that. i dont care if it's exceptional/sensationals vs remarkables/wonderfuls. that's okay by me. i'd be happy to be faced with that dissadvantage. but 6 months in and still working with proficient at best? and that's with major glaring holes....mike please take notice, and bridge the gap. it's my final plea
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#2

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:50 PM

that's deep.
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#3

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:54 PM

Very nice.
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#4 potter09

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:07 PM

Thats deeper than deep. Lol. Good effort.
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#5 jls.monster

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:12 PM

+1 for the effort.
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#6 PBR

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:15 PM

nice to see you came back noticed you were gone for little while -- this has been brought up about bringing back learning speed to what it was before and making the curve much harder at higher levels which i feel is a good idea -- would like to see what others think like wolf, shiv, mickey knuckles and others that have come back think also -- but some of them work with others so it might be easier for them -- that is a big key also to the game networking -- its not a have too but it does help
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#7 shortfuse122829

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:16 PM

i hate to agree cuz as some1 who's been around for a while i do love this game, but i also have a friend who just joined recently....and i helped him get set up cuz being an older player i have connections that have benefited him as well....but when he first made new fighters i told him to put them in NY and join a gym, only to find that the public gyms in NY are pretty terrible. Not cuz of the amount of ppl who are in them, but looking at equipment and cleanliness, so i realized well ur gonna need to find a way to not use public gyms...cuz if he was in a position he needed to do that, i guarantee he would lose interest in this game very quickly
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mrblack, on 13 November 2011 - 01:14 PM, said: i take the fights if i think i can win them and wont take them if i dont want to.

#8 AlexiZaitev

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:20 PM

i hate to agree cuz as some1 who's been around for a while i do love this game, but i also have a friend who just joined recently....and i helped him get set up cuz being an older player i have connections that have benefited him as well....but when he first made new fighters i told him to put them in NY and join a gym, only to find that the public gyms in NY are pretty terrible. Not cuz of the amount of ppl who are in them, but looking at equipment and cleanliness, so i realized well ur gonna need to find a way to not use public gyms...cuz if he was in a position he needed to do that, i guarantee he would lose interest in this game very quickly

i tried to help the public gym scene in NY a couple of months back, never got close to being able to break even, the best i got was 59 members for a day but i was usually around 55 members, my gym needed about 75 to break even. anyway enough of that, shiv and wolfenstein have returned to the game shiv is now hysteria in the forums and wolfenstein is swansong
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#9 shortfuse122829

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:26 PM

ya i know, but it is a MAJOR problem to the development of this game. First of all in public gym it takes ages to build a good fighter, so watching ur guy grow along at snails pace while there are so many monsters out there as is, very tough to deal with. you feel overwhelmed that u will NEVER close that gap. But it's hard just to find a decent gym as it is when ur a noob who also has limited options on making money in this game. Sure you can work for a company and make 5k a week, but getting companies started are very tough these days. The only real viable option for making money would be an org, and there are so many orgs out there it is tough to get 1 started ESPECIALLY if you are not active in chat or forums and getting connected.

i lucked into this game when i first started, i came to chat almost 1st day. had some1 take me under their wing, teach me fighter builds and sliders. then i got into an alliance within first few months of playing and had old timers in game like pureevil, didm, captain kid and manfred all offering sponsors to my fighters back in the day (large reason i always wanted to be TFP). Then i joined hitsquad and igor took care of me there. i made bots to get into private gyms (which now bots are pretty useless) and then once i was in hitsquad a while all my guys got into private gyms.

without all that stuff happening i might've never made it 2 yrs in game. so catering to ppl like me doesn't help this game grow and continue getting new players (cuz lets be honest, most old ones leave after so long)
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mrblack, on 13 November 2011 - 01:14 PM, said: i take the fights if i think i can win them and wont take them if i dont want to.

#10 ArtieBanks

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:28 PM

I am used to playing games at a steady pace and even i must admit the training time for my fighters takes the piss. I usually have to dip into the free agency and after talking to a few managers about training speed they say its best for it. Cutting down the weeks fighters age but not improving the speed that they train at? In other games i played such as Evony at least i could pay to speed things up which kept my interest in it.

What people who approve the changes say is that fighters will eventually die out and it will be a even playing field. That is true but what happens when its only those managers saying it to fight against each other? Because if i never had other things to do and talking to some of the people in it, i would have forgotten about this game along time ago and that will be the case in a lot of new members looking to join.
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#11 DavyJones

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:32 PM

New managers/fighters just have to realize they cant jump straight into the UFC (equivalent of) right away. There are plenty of orgs out there for every level of fighter. If your fighter is only proficient then fight other proficient fighters until your fighter is strong then take the appropriate step up in competition. I have 14 fighters that have been created in 2 months or less and personally I don't find that their progression is unreasonable for the amount of time put in but then again I wasn't around before the training changes so I never got to see how good it was. I have to admit I would be pretty damn bored if I only had 5 fighters.

My org is thriving with new players and from what I can tell most people seem pretty happy to be fighting in the bush leagues while their fighter progresses. I'm not one of those guys that can do nothing but train for a year before fighting. What a waste, just jump right in and fight against other rookies. I'm a new player myself and I'm having a blast. Sure I'm a little envious of all the beasts out there but I know I will get there eventually and I'm OK if I have to take a few loses along the way and maybe a couple extra months of training due to taking fights along the way. Not a big deal to me...

I'm not disagreeing with the OP, of course I'd like to see the game improve and retain new players. I'm just giving a different perspective.
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#12 jacky67

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:40 PM

Glad to see edwardsfan back, have a lot to say i'll type it later.



My org is thriving with new players and from what I can tell most people seem pretty happy to be fighting in the bush leagues while their fighter progresses.



That's the thing to do.
Maybe some thing can be improved like org with limited skills amount.
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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:47 PM

It's kind of a pendulum thing. Maybe, just maybe, the pendulum swung too far in one direction. If he pulls back just a little, that might be nice. But no way in hell should it be like it was before the changes.

If it goes back to "skills, skills, skills" it's not going to help new managers that much either. New managers can't afford too much private training, and one-on-one is unheard of in the public sector unless you catch an odd session here or there. It'll go back to the guys with the most money and the most connections(and the most accounts), grinding out new primary beasts every few months. That sounds just as unappealing as the fairly accurate picture e-fan painted above.
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#14 jory

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:01 AM

While I'd agree public gym situations can be pretty shitty, the speed fighters learn at is significantly higher than public gym learning in the past. The issue is more what edfan is talking about: learning speed and how damn slow it is. It's nice to see another veteran voice agree with what newer players have been saying for a while. The game is so slow for no real reason. Mike could literally double the speed of fighter training, and it'd still be considered a slow game. Even in the grindy-est games, it does not take a fighter a real life year of good training to break into "end game" fighting. I started about a year ago, and my second oldest fighter is my guess at what Mike was looking for in typical play style. He spent most of his time in public gyms, and fought basically every month. But he's still nowhere near the beasts that are around right now.

I believe the game is strong enough with the creativity of our community and the depth of the fight engine to survive without this artificial delay in gratification. I'd prefer a shift toward shorter fight cycles so players are in the thick of things way quicker. We'd build more fighters, be more willing to experiment, and generally fight more often. I know there's a fear people will get bored and quit just because they've seen everything faster but would these people really stick around for years in the first place? The people who like this game are a special breed so making it more fun by making it faster will only help us stay longer. Think of it more like playing a game you love over and over again versus a game you know you like but only really get to play through once or twice because of bloated timer filler quests.
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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:11 AM

I started 9 months ago, which makes me pretty late to the game in terms of first time playing. I have the luxury of having come in knowing some established players, but still a new experience despite the advantages in training I've gotten by starting out with connections.

And I will tell you what the most important aspect of the game to my experience has been. And it's Organization owners. I don't care how good/crappy the stage of my fighter's development is, if the Org gives me fights I feel I have a chance to win at my requested intervals, it's fun. If the Org keeps the skill level of the roster balanced so that my guy can compete near the top of the ranks, it's even better.

The only disheartening part of the game for me, is when a balanced competitive roster brings in a 'ringer' who will dominate the ranks indefinitely, or the owner offers unfair fights (which I decline) and then doesn't offer another for a month.

I haven't gotten to the sensational+ across the board stage yet, and that's fine with me. But that's the difference between where I'm at and where Edwardsfan is at. You've been to the top of the ranks I assume, and done the 'super fights', and maybe had everyone know the name of some of your fighters. So of course playing the game without that is going to be less fun. But personally, I'm having a real good time trying to win small and mid tier organization titles.

If there were one complaint I have, it'd be the lack of a place where new players can fight frequently without the inevitability of their 'ready to fight' 25 yo creation being obsolete, because Orgs just can't maintain that low a level of talent for long. For those like myself, who have entered into a 'long term' situation involving commitments to projects and sparbot contributions, my frequency of fights will be a little lower than I'd like over the next 6 to 9 months.

Perhaps something QFC-like, where all fighters created at 25 are eligible indefinitely. Just an endless source of guaranteed even'ish matchups at a high frequency, to allow me to have a lot of fights while the rest of the roster is being established would be a solution?

But overall, outside of having to settle for 2 fights a week, I have no complaints. I certainly see that there is going to be a gap between skill of various generations, but I'm not planning on sweating it. I'll just look to be the best of my generation and not worry about the older fighters if they have far superior stats.
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#16

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:12 AM

I Still say it is time for Private coaches. That way the newer guys who win some fights and make some money can get equal training as anyone on the game can. The best way to be fair is allow people who are successful the best possible training, and right now that is not possible IMO. If he allows the private coaches in gyms it iwll make money for gyms and allow people better training.



My second feeling is an idea I heardfrom a friend who plays here, and that is to make the early skills move faster and the higher ones move slower. I totally agree with his idea. Up until wonderful I think skills shoud move really fast. From there they can gradually slow. At wonderful people will still be competitive with almost anyone.
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#17 DavyJones

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:24 AM

I Still say it is time for Private coaches. That way the newer guys who win some fights and make some money can get equal training as anyone on the game can. The best way to be fair is allow people who are successful the best possible training, and right now that is not possible IMO. If he allows the private coaches in gyms it iwll make money for gyms and allow people better training.



My second feeling is an idea I heardfrom a friend who plays here, and that is to make the early skills move faster and the higher ones move slower. I totally agree with his idea. Up until wonderful I think skills shoud move really fast. From there they can gradually slow. At wonderful people will still be competitive with almost anyone.


I like both those idea's a lot. It would solve a lot of these problems for sure.
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#18 AlexiZaitev

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:58 AM

people who say 25 yo's cant compete long term, my top fighter rate now was a 25 yo creation who has fought in low and mid tier orgs, has a record of 13-4 with 11 TKO's

anyway, i like bankrupt's idea's
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#19

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:04 AM

One idea I discussed with Mike recently was while he is looking at the speed of early training adding named skill levels for fighters below say 60 skill points at 5 point intervals instead of 10. For example at 5 points you would go from Useless to Learning ( or something). This would make a noticeable pop possible in the first couple sessions in most public gyms and make managers a lot more likely to  log in on day 2 without actiually changing the games mechanics. I don't think this is the only thing that should be done, but it would certainly help in the meantime.
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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:10 AM

One idea I discussed with Mike recently was while he is looking at the speed of early training adding named skill levels for fighters below say 60 skill points at 5 point intervals instead of 10. For example at 5 points you would go from Useless to Learning ( or something). This would make a noticeable pop possible in the first couple sessions in most public gyms and make managers a lot more likely to  log in on day 2 without actiually changing the games mechanics. I don't think this is the only thing that should be done, but it would certainly help in the meantime.


That is just making them think its doing good, but not actually letting them compete. Which is the serious problem.
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