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TUF 17: Jones vs Sonnen

The Ultimate Fighter Team Jones Team Sonnen

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#41 markyosullivan

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

Personally I feel TUF is a great chance for fighters to make a name for themselves, Norman Parke won TUF: The Smashes and it's got him a lot of exposure and if I'm honest it feels weird seeing him back training with us sometimes.

Anyway, back to the 1st fight, think Gilbert Smith will win it just because generally UK fighters are pretty bad wrestlers and so I wouldn't be surprised if Luke Barnatt gets taken down and gets subbed.
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#42

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:41 AM

Chuck kept a stangehold on the LHW title for a long period of time and had an arch rival in Tito Ortiz for people to build up and regularly finished some of the biggest names in the sport, you can't compare him to Forrest Griffin and say it's TUF that held him back.

Griffin gained a ton of exposure from TUF but was never going to be on a par with Chuck largely due to his win loss record once he reached the top of the card, to do 2/3 or 3/4 of Chuck's PPV numbers is still a pretty big achievement.

I'm almost certain in a recent interview Dana White said that Rashad Evans is in their Top 5 PPV draws, he's another that went through TUF both as a coach and a fighter, the exposure helped him get his foot in the door and show us a bit about him but again what has made the difference is his performance in the cage. He's won titles, picked up big wins with the odd highlight reel finish along the way, that's what has turned him into a PPV draw and a star, the TUF stuff is just a minor part of it.

You can then take guys like Leben, Koscheck, Roy Nelson all of whom have been through TUF that helped gain them a lot of exposure. Leben has perhaps fallen a little off the radar now but they could all quite feasibly co-main a PPV or main event a free card. They are all decent names but I don't think you'd call any of them stars, largely once again because after the show their performances and win loss record have been good but not great.

So in short I don't think TUF holds people back at all or stops them from becoming stars, it's what they do afterwards that helps to decide that. I think if anything the show still gives people enough of a reason to actually care whether or not a fighter wins or loses once they get on the main shows. If you keep racking up the wins, you'll become a star, TUF alumni or not.



Forrest was champion and hadnt started losing and he was still not drawing very well. The only cards he ever had great PPV buys was when he was piggybacking someone else like Silva. I dont buy Rashad being the top 5 draw. Dana is a promoter and tends to exaggerate when he need to promote a fighter or fight. Evans is just like Frank Mir. They are not great draws but they have been a part of the biggest events because they get on Mega cards or get to fight people who are big draws. IF you total PPV buys Frank Mir would be right behind Brock and GSP. Rashad has been able to reap the benefits of fighting Forrest, Liddell, Rampage, Tito twice, Machida and Jon Jones. All of which were bigger draws than Evans himself. When he wasnt fighting a Star he couldnt carry it. His fight with Thiago Silva 300,000 buys. Bisping 400K. Rematch with Tito 300K. Evans has been able to win consistantly so he hasnt dropped from being a draw. For example Machida was a big draw when he was champ but isnt without the belt. Evans doesnt peak as a draw and drop down. He is just consistant compared to all the guys who have passed the 205 belt around. But he is never at any one point a top 5 draw. GSP, Silva, Cain, Jones, Santos, Overeem, Penn, Chael, etc all are bigger draws than him. Even Edgar, Bendo, and some others are more popular but dont have the big name opponents Rashad has to bring in big numbers. When Evans isnt fighting a Big star. PPV numbers bottom out to what the UFC draws just with their brand name. He has started to make a name recently with his appearance on Fox vs Davis. But he isnt a draw.

Chuck has those rivalries before TUF. He was never a popular guy. In fact most fans of the sport back then hated him and felt he was bad for the sport because his belly and called him a redneck. A personality like forrest should have easily got a bigger boost than Chuck and Randy. This isnt just a 1 times example. Every single season the coaches have come off better than any fighter. The coaches fights and their subsequent popularity afterwods has always be much more than any contestant gets.TUF made Jackson a household name and caused his fight with Evans to break 1 million buys. It made Tito and Ken mega stars again with all their fights getting huge numbers. It established Penn as a draw. Matt Serra come off better as a coach than he did as a fighter. Thats to much coincidence to ignore. Forrest is the closest thing to a star the show ever created. There are guys who are talented and are considered names because they are good. But Koscheck, Evans, etc are not popular fighters. In the right match up they can be a heel and get people interested. But they are not draws or well liked. Chael, GSp, Jones, Silva, Brock, and possibley Cain, Chuck, Randy, Hughes, etc are super stars. TUF has never produced anyone to put in that group.
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#43

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:48 AM

Personally I feel TUF is a great chance for fighters to make a name for themselves, Norman Parke won TUF: The Smashes and it's got him a lot of exposure and if I'm honest it feels weird seeing him back training with us sometimes.

Anyway, back to the 1st fight, think Gilbert Smith will win it just because generally UK fighters are pretty bad wrestlers and so I wouldn't be surprised if Luke Barnatt gets taken down and gets subbed.



I think it is great for fighters too. But at the same time i understand why the UFC avoids putting their "sure thing prospects" on there. They have more control on how they look. Even the best fighters can lose or look bad with bad match making. Look at Machida when he come to the UFC. He got defensive fighter after defensive fighter. Tiger White, Hogar, Nakamura and he couldnt finish anyone. Whne they give his a different style he was finishing everyone. He went from being a boring fighter to making highlight reels. They can make a fighter look good and keep a star in the making from being on the wrong end of a dry humping wrestler. On the show they cant control it and the figths are random. So they have never put their best prospects on there.
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#44 CusDamato

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:18 AM

I dont think its just the drinking and stuff. Its just the constant exposure. I think a lot of exposure when someone is already a star is fine. But when they are just an average joe to much isnt good imo. I think it effects the image people get of the fighter.Im not sure i can discribe what im trying to get at but i will give an example. When i used to train BJJ regularly. One of our guys i trained with all the time made it to the UFC. While in the UFC he was winning sub of the night awards like crazy and was beginning to have a large fan following. But to me he was just an average guy i have trained with for a logn time. I would never look at him the same way i do a Chuck Liddell or Couture or even a Rich Franklin. I think people see TUF guys like that. They see them as average people during the show and i think that is hard to change or get rid of after the show. I dont think they can ever reach a larger than life status of a Chuck, Randy, Silva, or GSP. Most fans started out in awe of these guys and will always have that feeling. Just as fans look down in a way on TUF guys and will never again see them in the same light.

Maybe the right fighter hasnt come through TUF. Or maybe the UFC hasnt found the right formula to promote the fighters properly. But imo, especially on the first season. Popularity didnt work out like you would think. Chuck has been fighting for years and was never popular. Couture wasnt Mr Personality either. Coutre was soft spoken and Chuck was shy. How do these guys comes off TUF by far more popular than anyone who was fighting on it? The coaches really did nothing on the show and benefited more than the fighters with what i believe to have better personalities and who was fighting and winning. IMO, this shows there is some kind of stigma that fans attach to the fighters based on what they saw or how they were promoted. Im not talking about the stigma that hardcore fans put on the fighters for being reality tv stars. But the established stars who were coaches have always got more from the show than any fighter. The coaches fights after the show always sell and the coaches always get a big popularity boost. While their role is limited as is their exposure. The nature of the shows puts the contestants out of their element where you cant always come off in a good light. I cant really explain it. But a fighter like Forrest should have got much more popularity off TUF than a Chuck or Randy. at least up until he lost his belt. But he wasnt even close. His best PPV numbers were 2/3 or 3/4 of what Chuck was able to do regularly.

Not calling you a liar but unless your friend is Joe Lauzon, Nate Diaz or Terry Etim i'm calling BS, oh wait i guess i am calling you a liar.
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#45

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:39 AM

Not calling you a liar but unless your friend is Joe Lauzon, Nate Diaz or Terry Etim i'm calling BS, oh wait i guess i am calling you a liar.


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I thought he won 3 sub of the nights. But it was 2 and a fight of the night and Submission of the year. BUt what do i know. Im just a liar.
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#46

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:53 AM

did you teach im that armbar?
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#47 CusDamato

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:33 AM

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I thought he won 3 sub of the nights. But it was 2 and a fight of the night and Submission of the year. BUt what do i know. Im just a liar.

Dustin Hazelett? I only called BS because you said he was racking up sub of the night awards like crazy and those are the only guys that have a bunch of them

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#48

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

He should have had two more. His armbar on Goulet and anaconda on Lynch lost out to lame run of the mill rear naked chokes.
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#49 markyosullivan

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:26 PM

*** WARNING SPOILER IN NEXT POST ***


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#50 markyosullivan

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:28 PM

That was always going to be a tough fight for Gilbert Smith, Barnatt was a lot taller which made it a lot harder for Smith. Thought Barnatt did well and he wasn't taken down that easily imo.


Team Jones

Clint Hester
Josh Samman
Bubba McDaniel
Gilbert Smith
Colin Hart
Adam Cella
Dylan Andrews


Team Sonnen

Luke Barnatt (W)
Uriah Hall
Zak Cummings
Tor Troeng
Jimmy Quinlan
Kevin Casey
Kelvin Gastelum
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#51 AK47

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

gilbert looked terrible just utterly terrible
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#52 CusDamato

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:27 AM

Good pick by Jones.....
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#53

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:44 AM

Good pick by Jones.....



In his defense he didnt have 3 month notice and Greg Jackson to break down the fight and create a game plan. Who can coach under these condition! :winner:
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#54

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:55 AM

Someone who has coasted on physical gifts and is a relative novice in the sport sucks at coaches. Who woulda thought.
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#55 markyosullivan

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:04 PM

Tbf Jones' team seems to full of assholes
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#56 AK47

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

Tbf Jones' team seems to full of assholes

everyone was assholes except for hester it seems lol
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#57

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:39 PM

Dustin Hazelett? I only called BS because you said he was racking up sub of the night awards like crazy and those are the only guys that have a bunch of them



ahaha idiot :D you got owned by brainsmasher :D
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#58 jacky67

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

fuck they say next episode is one of the best KO dana have seen, i'm pumped i hope he's not joking.
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Posted Image
Shiv get raped 3 times streak in the same night,and he still ask more.
Worst beatdown ever Snake the pendulum vs Phil Ivey :50-42 .
20:42 Sniper1 i would love to see silva lose,he is like jacky
20:42 Sniper1 to me, they are pretty much the same:the goat.

#59 Justus

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

Yeah, he best not be jonking.
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First of all I am not retard.


#60 jacky67

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

Yeah, he best not be jonking.


what's jonking?
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Posted Image
Shiv get raped 3 times streak in the same night,and he still ask more.
Worst beatdown ever Snake the pendulum vs Phil Ivey :50-42 .
20:42 Sniper1 i would love to see silva lose,he is like jacky
20:42 Sniper1 to me, they are pretty much the same:the goat.





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