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Fixing public gyms


thb

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To run through the summary of points;

 

 

A possible short-term solution: make it possible and not too costly to run both a private and a public gym.

The site would need reprogramming to allow more than one gym. You're blocked from doing it, so gymmanager, buying / selling companies, creating companies, finances, mybusinesses, profile pages etc all need reprogramming so that anything to do with managing the gym doesn't just go to e.g. gymmanager.php - it would go to gymmanager.php?GymID=1

That's all the links but also any back end stuff like submit buttons for coaches, wages, equipment etc. So it's a big job. Maybe we do it but it's not a quick one.

 

Possible long-term solutions:

- Dramatically increase learning speed at the lower levels

I'm fine with this.

 

- Increase the skill points cap in public gyms so we can have more top quality gym coaches

- Maximum coach wages in public gyms

Anything that's "do x for public gyms" has the inherent problem that you can switch between public and private gyms with one click. Also, what is even a public or private gym? You can set to public but then set a number of fighters limit. Or if you are actually public but full with x number of fighters from different managers. That might change from one day to the next for any gym in the game, so you can't have dramatically different cost parameters for "public" and "private". With a points cap for example, it's impossible to change that cap if someone goes private, then just what? Chop a load of coaches?

Yeah, that would stop people turning an already public gym private I guess, but I'm 100% sure people would try and cheat the system and set up bot accounts / fighters just to fill slots and pretend to be a public gym, whilst not actually using training slots etc... In short, I think it's very likely going to be a mess to do anything like that.

 

"Maximum coach wages" specifically, is just another way of wrapping up a tax with a bow on it and pretending it's not a tax... But in a much more complicated way to work on a week to week basis, if gyms went from private to public and back again.

 

 

- Increase public gym fees limit

This doesn't address the problem. The problem is the need for cheap but good public gyms, for new managers.

http://mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=4437

That's the sort of gym we need more of. $195 with decent coaches. That's the only gym in Helsinki at that moment (with space), which is the type of gym I'm trying to help with the tax or whatever you want to call it.

It makes no difference if there's a load of decent expensive public gyms... They'll just be used by rich existing managers at the expense of the new users, who can't get decent training and quit.

One thing i will be doing is adding something to the create new fighter page, to point users to the best cheap gyms. Maybe I'll increase starting bank balance for fighters too.

 

- A slight increase in learning speed in general

Maybe.

 

- Make it possible for non-VIP managers to see the number of people in a class.

They already can. :)

 

 

Anyway... I put off looking at this thread for a few days as I assumed it was going to be depressingly negative. I've had nothing but negative messages about the change in PMs, so it was nice to see it was more positive for the most part.

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I still like my idea, even if it's a change to "do x for public gyms" type of change, it's a nonfactor to private training to make worse training ratios feel better and could honestly be done for private gyms to. I don't expect to see private gyms using the 3+ people in a session if it still falls short of 1-2 session training. It could be done to both, it's not a matter of it impacting both it's making it meaningful in 1 situation that is public training and less meaningful for private training.

The absolute worst case with my suggestion is guys get together and invest on 1 gym, thus allowing newer guys to either train up or older guys to train down in value for some reason. The only abuse of this would be trying to find a way to slot more people into classes and that'd likely only help level the field since it'd still be a little worse then private training by default but at the end of the day as long as private sessions are more valuable this doesn't really impact them.

 

 

Also the VIP page still lists "View a full breakdown of how busy coaches are in each session, plus a sparring schedule showing how many fighters spar in each training slot" as a feature so I was under the impressions normal members couldn't.

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Great to hear from you Mike. I'm not a fan personally of the increased learning speed thing but maybe I'm in the minority there. I like the slower pace of the game myself. I think the key for public gyms is to make them both profitable and free VIP wise or at least a small drain on days. I have a nutrition and clothing company (in addition to a private gym) that frankly aren't worth it and have actually cost me a large amount of money (and VIP) which is ok because I have it but for others that's not the case.

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I'm also really not into any learning speed boosts.

 

 

To run through the summary of points;

 

 

A possible short-term solution: make it possible and not too costly to run both a private and a public gym.

The site would need reprogramming to allow more than one gym. You're blocked from doing it, so gymmanager, buying / selling companies, creating companies, finances, mybusinesses, profile pages etc all need reprogramming so that anything to do with managing the gym doesn't just go to e.g. gymmanager.php - it would go to gymmanager.php?GymID=1

That's all the links but also any back end stuff like submit buttons for coaches, wages, equipment etc. So it's a big job. Maybe we do it but it's not a quick one.

A workaround idea - make every gym both private and public. Technically, I imagine something like putting a checkbox at every coach if he's public or private, having public coaches not count for the gym point cap, and making the gym member limit count only for the public section. The hard part is the conditional visibility when an uninvited fighter doesn't see private coaches and vice-versa, and potentially splitting gym fees to have a separate fee for invited and uninvited fighters. It would also need covering the gym being over the limit and wanting to switch a public coach for a private one (would need to be impossible).

 

Like this, people don't need separate companies to run public gyms, and who doesn't want to participate can have the public fighter limit at 0 without being affected, but whoever wants to run a public gym can do that on top of the private one. A lot of people have money to burn and are more than happy to help the game, so I believe many would put up a bunch of public coaches at a financial loss purely to help the newer players.

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Mike has some good points. To define a public gym, maybe look at the one thing that really matters, average number of of training sessions per coach? It would have to be tracked over the whole week to avoid cheating the formula by just changing things for Thursdays, but seems doable.

 

So anything over X sessions per coach would count as public. So definition would be crowded gym rather than public gym. Then effects could be applied specifically to them. Or even better scale effects based on value of X as long as say X>2.

 

Effects could then be as Mike mentions a discount on coach wages - directly related to profitability and easier than messing with any skill caps.

 

Or another option, what if nutrition partnerships was made more profitable for this type of gym? Also a direct effect on profitability while driving player interaction and at the same time providing a niche for startup nutrition companies who cannot compete with the 160 supps. Would also feel slightly more realistic that a gym that was open to the general public would generate more sales profits. As a gym owner looking for profit you would ideally want to get as many fighters as possible in, but would have to balance it against training quality and what the competition offers.

 

This could maybe be done anyway without some arbitrary public/crowded gym definition, but would be harder to balance so it benefits exactly the gyms you want.

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New conclusions so far:

- Make it possible and not too costly to run both a private and a public gym: needs a lot of programming but is possible


- Dramatically increase learning speed at the lower levels: possible


- A slight increase in learning speed in general: maybe



Possible new ideas:

- Make every gym both private and public: a checkbox for which coach is public and which is private

=> I’ll quote Mike here: “Anything that's "do x for public gyms" has the inherent problem that you can switch between public and private gyms with one click.”


- What if nutrition partnerships were made more profitable for (public) gyms?

=> I like this idea, though it needs to be worked out more in detail. How would be the best way to go around doing this?

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If I may, from a player who is new but with large aspirations.

 

Spending the first few weeks creating terrible fighters and training in ways that make no sense.

 

When you come out on the other side, weeks or months later, it’s a huge bummer to see how much time you just wasted.

 

Accelerated training in the first few weeks could also keep newer players more interested. Let’s be honest, seeing a lot of pops is what we all like to see!

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If I may, from a player who is new but with large aspirations.

 

Spending the first few weeks creating terrible fighters and training in ways that make no sense.

 

When you come out on the other side, weeks or months later, it’s a huge bummer to see how much time you just wasted.

 

Accelerated training in the first few weeks could also keep newer players more interested. Let’s be honest, seeing a lot of pops is what we all like to see!

 

Preaching to the choir :)

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No to learning speed boost pls.

 

Some managers already test on day 1, fight themselves on day 2 (whatta joke) and then cook for 5 months.

 

By boosting the learning speed you will just widen the gap which is the exact opposite you want to accomplish. You know it, I know it.

 

Some good ideas itt, wil take the time to read more carefully another time.

 

Also newer players need to socalize a bit more. I swear if they just go through some of the locations (Highstreet) and look at private gyms lots of them are half empty. Literally 1 email away from asking dozens of managers if it`s ok to use a few of their coaches.

 

Sometimes the easiest solution is smack in front of your eyes. Like just plain socializing and networking a bit better. It`s a Tycoon game after all.

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http://www.mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=4656

 

This gym is excellent (I`ve stayed here recently when passed by LV) and has room. The clown has room for 4 more coaches. I`d be sending an email like yesterday. I would ask him to open X spots more for my gang and to pls hire 4 more coaches.

 

Negotiate a bit. Ask to pay the difference. He is loaded, wil probably just say fuck it and help.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/1586540465jkkkkkk.jpg

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=4515

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/1569712046iron-mike-boxing-camp-main.png

 

Took me another 2 minutes to find this other one, room for 3 and lots of room.

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No to learning speed boost pls.

 

Some managers already test on day 1, fight themselves on day 2 (whatta joke) and then cook for 5 months.

 

By boosting the learning speed you will just widen the gap which is the exact opposite you want to accomplish. You know it, I know it.

 

Some good ideas itt, wil take the time to read more carefully another time.

 

Also newer players need to socalize a bit more. I swear if they just go through some of the locations (Highstreet) and look at private gyms lots of them are half empty. Literally 1 email away from asking dozens of managers if it`s ok to use a few of their coaches.

 

Sometimes the easiest solution is smack in front of your eyes. Like just plain socializing and networking a bit better. It`s a Tycoon game after all.

 

Which is why a boost in learning speed in just the lower levels could be preferred. That would actually have a bigger impact on new players. As Shortstacker already mentioned: “Accelerated training in the first few weeks could also keep newer players more interested.” This feels like a good way to do just that.
That’s actually a very good point, socializing and networking is a very good way to get anywhere fast in this game. A mentor for example can do wonders for new players.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=4656

 

This gym is excellent (I`ve stayed here recently when passed by LV) and has room. The clown has room for 4 more coaches. I`d be sending an email like yesterday. I would ask him to open X spots more for my gang and to pls hire 4 more coaches.

 

Negotiate a bit. Ask to pay the difference. He is loaded, wil probably just say fuck it and help.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/1586540465jkkkkkk.jpg

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/gympublic.php?gmid=4515

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/1569712046iron-mike-boxing-camp-main.png

 

Took me another 2 minutes to find this other one, room for 3 and lots of room.

 

Las Vegas is an exception, there are indeed a few good public gyms there and there even is a little bit of room left in those. It’s everywhere else that the situation is critical at best. We can’t ask every new player to base their fighters in Las Vegas, the public gyms there would be crowded in no time.

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No to learning speed boost pls.

 

Some managers already test on day 1, fight themselves on day 2 (whatta joke) and then cook for 5 months.

 

By boosting the learning speed you will just widen the gap which is the exact opposite you want to accomplish. You know it, I know it.

 

Some good ideas itt, wil take the time to read more carefully another time.

 

Also newer players need to socalize a bit more. I swear if they just go through some of the locations (Highstreet) and look at private gyms lots of them are half empty. Literally 1 email away from asking dozens of managers if it`s ok to use a few of their coaches.

 

Sometimes the easiest solution is smack in front of your eyes. Like just plain socializing and networking a bit better. It`s a Tycoon game after all.

You mention “some managers” do x, y, z. Those things you mentioned are not done by new managers, they’re done by people who know exactly what they are doing.

 

The only reason I started doing the above mentioned is because I spent a lot of time researching how to be a better manager. A lot of newer people aren’t going to put as much work in. I’m not suggesting making things easier per say, but a push in the right direction of the bat keeps new people around.

 

Whether we’re speaking about MMA Tycoon or a million other games, being an elitist and believing everything is perfect is not a good mindset. If we want the game to continue to grow, it needs to be simplified for the noobies.

 

I realize that this game has been developing for over a decade, but it’s never to late to introduce new mechanics for players looking to jump in.

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I wrote some on that new player experience elsewhere a while back but cannot find it now. For once I agree with Camara on something, raising learning speed is not the way to go. Rather expand some on that little tutorial you get when joining and make it include a few easy fights against preset builds so you get both some early fights and a few hints about how to set your sliders in different situations. That would both give you a taste of the fighting early on and hopefully some idea of what sliders do.

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I wrote some on that new player experience elsewhere a while back but cannot find it now. For once I agree with Camara on something, raising learning speed is not the way to go. Rather expand some on that little tutorial you get when joining and make it include a few easy fights against preset builds so you get both some early fights and a few hints about how to set your sliders in different situations. That would both give you a taste of the fighting early on and hopefully some idea of what sliders do.

 

Immediate fights against AI opponents or even just getting QFC fights faster, especially in the beginning, have been suggested many, many times before (just to name a few: http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58730 and http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60467 or even http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=56460).

 

I agree this would be a nice addition but realistically, I just don’t see that getting implemented any time soon.

 

 

There are many new user guides floating around that are actually really good. It’s helping new players find them and getting them to actually read them and understand their importance that are a lot harder than you might think. When you start playing the game, it can all be a little overwhelming. Getting a mentor will help speed up your progress in this game more than anything else can. But not everyone is inclined to do that, I for example never did.

 

Whether you get a mentor or not, getting a sense of progress in the beginning is the most important thing to focus on, if you want a new player to keep coming back. Boosting the learning speed at the lower levels feels like a good way to do that.

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I agree this would be a nice addition but realistically, I just don’t see that getting implemented any time soon.

Not a huge thing in terms of development, Mike is doing things for the game again and active in this thread, was testing out the early phase of the game himself not long ago. Doesn't seem completely impossible to me.

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Not a huge thing in terms of development, Mike is doing things for the game again and active in this thread, was testing out the early phase of the game himself not long ago. Doesn't seem completely impossible to me.

 

It does seem like quite a bit of work in terms of programming it but I agree it could be worth it.

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Immediate fights against AI opponents or even just getting QFC fights faster, especially in the beginning, have been suggested many, many times before (just to name a few: http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58730 and http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60467 or even http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=56460).

 

I agree this would be a nice addition but realistically, I just don’t see that getting implemented any time soon.

 

 

There are many new user guides floating around that are actually really good. It’s helping new players find them and getting them to actually read them and understand their importance that are a lot harder than you might think. When you start playing the game, it can all be a little overwhelming. Getting a mentor will help speed up your progress in this game more than anything else can. But not everyone is inclined to do that, I for example never did.

 

Whether you get a mentor or not, getting a sense of progress in the beginning is the most important thing to focus on, if you want a new player to keep coming back. Boosting the learning speed at the lower levels feels like a good way to do that.

Agreed on all fronts.

 

Look at it from a psychological point of view. New player starts, makes a bunch of terrible fighters off the bat and gets them into quick fights. New player loses all fights horribly because of poor builds, poor slider settings and minimal knowledge of proper training protocol.

 

On top of that, seeing little to no progression because of few “pops”, can be quite frustrating.

 

We all like seeing plus signs, number increases, watching our fighters grow! It’s the carrot on the stick! You stick around to watch how that fighter will grow!

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Agreed on all fronts.

 

Look at it from a psychological point of view. New player starts, makes a bunch of terrible fighters off the bat and gets them into quick fights. New player loses all fights horribly because of poor builds, poor slider settings and minimal knowledge of proper training protocol.

 

On top of that, seeing little to no progression because of few “pops”, can be quite frustrating.

 

We all like seeing plus signs, number increases, watching our fighters grow! It’s the carrot on the stick! You stick around to watch how that fighter will grow!

 

In your particular case you have skipped what I believe is the 2 most important parts of the winning formula:

 

1- Learn to win with 25 year olds

2- Get a dedicated mentor

 

Well for number 2 you are asking a lot of questions and that is ok too but #1 is so key I am not too sure I would want to skip it.

 

Let me expand and my apologies if I digress from the topic a bit...

 

It goes far past the entire "winning is an attitude" of real life. Winning in 25 year old QFC will allow you to climb the ranks and pick up fully trained oldies from the free agency. It will also cement your 2-3 slider setups you will use like forever after that.

 

Picking up trained guys from FA a full 2 years ahead of your time will help you avoid costly mistakes you will do with your first and second home-grown batch.

 

I see a lot of managers try to blast though their first year just to end up with mixed results and then get discouraged. Hopefully this is not your case.

 

Good luck and again, excellent talk in this subject/thread.

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In your particular case you have skipped what I believe is the 2 most important parts of the winning formula:

 

1- Learn to win with 25 year olds

2- Get a dedicated mentor

 

Well for number 2 you are asking a lot of questions and that is ok too but #1 is so key I am not too sure I would want to skip it.

 

Let me expand and my apologies if I digress from the topic a bit...

 

It goes far past the entire "winning is an attitude" of real life. Winning in 25 year old QFC will allow you to climb the ranks and pick up fully trained oldies from the free agency. It will also cement your 2-3 slider setups you will use like forever after that.

 

Picking up trained guys from FA a full 2 years ahead of your time will help you avoid costly mistakes you will do with your first and second home-grown batch.

 

I see a lot of managers try to blast though their first year just to end up with mixed results and then get discouraged. Hopefully this is not your case.

 

Good luck and again, excellent talk in this subject/thread.

 

Let’s try not to digress too much and keep this thread focused on fixing the gym problem.

 

 

Yes, getting a mentor is the best thing a new player can do if he wants to progress fast though I don’t think it is necessary. It takes time to figure this game out on your own but it can also be rewarding in its own right.

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Let’s try not to digress too much and keep this thread focused on fixing the gym problem.

 

 

For the min-maxers out there (myself included), I want my fighters training with the best, and also getting the best experience possible. The only way to do that is with 1:1 training with elite coaches. For the average guy running a gym, affording enough coaches to still maintain a cash flow but also to ensure the best training... Is nearly impossible. Especially with the limit on coaching skill points.

 

My suggestions, and again this is coming from a new guy who has done a lot of research in my short time.

 

1. Perhaps if trainers were overall less expensive, it wouldn't be as tough for guys running pub gyms. If you're running a private gym, money isn't typically going to be a problem, so its a win/win.

2. Eliminate the skill point cap.

3. From useless to say, competent? The training speed could be accelerated anywhere from 10-25%. This would make the first few weeks for new trainers much more exciting. Seeing pops everyday, every session, feels HUGELY rewarding and would help sink players in. Once they surpass competent it could return to the usual speed.

 

Hopefully some of this made sense.

 

Cheers.

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For the min-maxers out there (myself included), I want my fighters training with the best, and also getting the best experience possible. The only way to do that is with 1:1 training with elite coaches. For the average guy running a gym, affording enough coaches to still maintain a cash flow but also to ensure the best training... Is nearly impossible. Especially with the limit on coaching skill points.

 

My suggestions, and again this is coming from a new guy who has done a lot of research in my short time.

 

1. Perhaps if trainers were overall less expensive, it wouldn't be as tough for guys running pub gyms. If you're running a private gym, money isn't typically going to be a problem, so its a win/win.

2. Eliminate the skill point cap.

3. From useless to say, competent? The training speed could be accelerated anywhere from 10-25%. This would make the first few weeks for new trainers much more exciting. Seeing pops everyday, every session, feels HUGELY rewarding and would help sink players in. Once they surpass competent it could return to the usual speed.

 

Hopefully some of this made sense.

 

Cheers.

 

Mike already adressed some concerns on the first two points in terms of people trying to cheat the system if that were to happen, so those seem unlikely unfortunately. As for the third, still seems like an idea worth fighting for to me.

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I suggested years ago that there should be an option for gyms. Just like Saunas and vending machines. Where you can either check a box or have it as part of a drop down for training that you could set up a spar fight. It would be run just like fight but not show hiddens. It wouldnt show up on your fight record that could be scouted. But, it would allow you the same results essentially of a fight without being recorded. This would also zap your energy just like a fight so you might lose some training time to recover. This could allow managers to test their tactics and get a feel for their fighter. Maybe have it so you can select spar fighting vs an elite or wonderful fighter. Probably a lot of work though

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Mike already adressed some concerns on the first two points in terms of people trying to cheat the system if that were to happen, so those seem unlikely unfortunately. As for the third, still seems like an idea worth fighting for to me.

If you set a min. capacity limit it is easily fixed. set it at 100, and reduce the coach fees as well as increase the coach limit by 5?

 

never been a big fan of coach limit or skill cap but how often do you see gyms with more than 15 coaches? Idk. personally first reaction is raise or lift it.

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Another thing is educating everyone and trusting they do it right. You could easily have a gym with 20 coaches and more fighters IF you could get all to train properly. A useless skill doesnt need to train with elite coaches for max gains. They can train with coaches that are what competent or something and still get max gains. So a gym could easy have half a dozen competent coaches and half dozen wonderful coaches and half dozen elite coaches and mix in some double elite and double wonderful and so on. But managers need to be trusted to follow the order of training progression. Start with competent then go to wonderful then to elite.

Unless this training progression doesnt exist anymore?

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