Fight Engine Discussion

[Monsieur.Camara]

What about a small learning speed increase from fighting? At least up to a certain level.

 

This gives us more early fighting and makes the slow learners not be totally hopeless.

 

This isn`t a bad idea.

 

In real life fighters get huge benefits from actually fighting or as we call it "minutes in the cage/ring"

 

In Tycoon, it is backwards. With focus on pure in class training and friendly sparring.

 

I will illustrate this with an example, and no I`m not picking on you karter it`s just a perfect example to this topic:

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=350281

 

So, if we take young Puno here and try to relate him to real life he took a few fights in the regional/amateur circuit (QFC).

 

Once his manager saw potential (chin/morale after a loss/learning speed) he became a keeper.

 

He then went on to fight 1 professional fight (non QFC).

 

After that a same manager fight (both karter`s fighters) where he easily won (and kept him from depopping skills?). We could equate this to just another friendly sparring session between teammates: http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=1016782

 

Well what happens next is young Puno here will finish training, join a top 10 org ranked probably #2500ish and SMESH easily his way up the rankings. All along taking in much more Hype when he wins than giving it when he/if loses (not much to give really).

 

This exercise is extremely +EV and common practice since ever.

 

Conclusion: This is where the game is backwards a bit and changes are needed. Real life doesn`t work like that.

 

in Tycoon simulation you have top trained fighters entering the pool with almost no injuries, top private training and almost no experience.

 

In real life if you don`t fight you cannot pay your training camps, nor your managers. Furthermore if you were to drop a 6-1 or 8-1 noob to fight someone like Max Holloway 99% of the time Holloway beats him easily.

 

Right now there is no incentive (except if you are an up and coming manager that needs the money) to fight and fight often. On the contrary, lokk at Steve. He finally reached his full training at about 2700 points but by then, aftre 50 battles, his chin was absolutely gone and we had to retire him:

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=312691

 

Hope that helps illustrate this issue.

[barney]

I don't think the solution is increased learning speed. You would still be clicking through exactly as many drop down boxes every week to set training for all your guys. Fighters would spend more of their career fighting at openid and id orgs would live shorter lives, making it an even tougher prospect to start one up.

 

Instead what if the micromanaging sucked less? Like being able to set train kicks to 12 then switch to clinch or whatever other system that is not setting each session individually. Get us some actual autopilot features.

PA function maybe?

[barney]

What about a small learning speed increase from fighting? At least up to a certain level.

 

This gives us more early fighting and makes the slow learners not be totally hopeless.

This is also good. Maybe having pops from fighting as well, as if a training session?

[Shortstacker]

I’ll weigh in more on account of being the newest person to post with regards to this topic.

 

A lot of vets seem to forget how hard it is to make money when you’re starting out. I’ve stated this in several other threads the past few months. If you aren’t a writer, have no graphic design skills or aren’t willing to sell VIP time, it’s VERY difficult to make money.

 

I see a lot of super new players with less than a dollar in their bank account after a few short weeks.

 

Folks should be encouraging new players to stick around, whether that means mentoring them, or by coming up with smart design ideas to help keep them afloat.

 

More new people is absolutely necessary to keeping the game going, without a steady influx of new players, I fear for the future.

[tomodinho]

What about a small learning speed increase from fighting? At least up to a certain level.

 

This gives us more early fighting and makes the slow learners not be totally hopeless.

Agree on this, maybe it should mostly improve primaries as sparring and fighting is more alike and also of course a certain bit secondaries and physicals.

[Xyel]

Fighting at young age isn´t worth it, the only way to make it worth it is to give people a reason to fight, as in skills improve after a fight to make it unnecessary to not fight to be able to train fully. The problem with this would be that you probably wouldn´t be able to control what your fighter improves in which could ruin a build.

 

And this is where we disagree - fighting at a young age is a lot of fun, and it's an excellent way to know which fighters to keep and which to sack to make new ones in the next ID batch. I mean, when I came back in March, I made 13 18 year olds as 360k id rolled over (Mike times his mass email perfectly). Out of them, I've rolled 0 granites, but a few fast learners, and overall, one looks like he'll be a really good fighter, one looks very promising, two look promising, about three I am undecided, and the rest is already decided to get cut once 370k rolls over.

 

Overall, I've had 103 fights since March 31st, and it has been a hell lot of fun, which has made it worth it even if none of the fighters reaches the endgame level.

 

Wouldn´t this lead to the same thing as we have now though? Still the fastest way to get every skill to 15 would be not to fight with the fighter for a couple of months and that fighter will have advantage over the fighter that is fighting. Don´t think this would change much.

There's nothing wrong with the path "cook for a year and have an endgame fighter" existing. And it's also all right that it comes with a large risk - if the fighter turns out to be a dud, it's a year wasted. It's a high cost + high risk + moderate reward path, that definitely should exist in the game.

[Xyel]

And on topic of helping new managers, imo two things would help tremendously - from what I see from questions from people who randomly message me for advice (yes, such people exist):

 

1) Fighter creation should provide VIABLE templates, both for 25 year olds and for 18 year olds, with an accompanied text of what the starting training plan should be. I'm pretty sure the community would be more than happy to put this together, so when the new manager comes around, selects he wants to make a 25 yo boxer, he gets solid build with the starting advice of what to train.

 

2) Fighters should start with $15 - 20k, so new managers can afford to make an 18 yo, train him for 2 - 3 months, and then start fighting - at this point, the 18 yo is fully fight-capable and will earn enough money to pay for his stuff.

[Monsieur.Camara]

Also, fighting as a younger fighter vs fighting as a fully trained fighters both being fun is 100% accurate.

 

As a younger fighter you actually see the different styles and they are all viable.

 

As a fully trained top fighter you are 1 of 2 or maybe 3 viable builds and the skill level at the top in regards to sliders is so close that it is a coin flip most of the time.

 

As a younger prospect you can have ground and pounders that do well, BJJ specialists and all kind of strikers. Except for headlining massive events and getting my fighter displayed on some poster fighting in ID restricted orgs is 1000% more enjoyable than endgame.

[tomodinho]

Xyel I dont think we actually disagree on much here, I too think its fun to fight with younger fighters, however I have learned that if you want to be competitive in the endgame you almost in all cases have to sacrifice fighting in younger years. I wish that you could still fight and improve thus the ideas in which this could be improved.

 

As for my second post, my point is, even if the training would be changed so that levels 1-12 are accomplished faster while 13-15 are slower, it still wouldnt have been worth it if the goal is to be successful long term, to fight at a young age consistently. For example even if lets say it takes 2 months to take 4 attributes from 1 to 12 right now and lets say a year to take 7 attributes from 12 to 15 right now. If this would be changed to only a month for 1 to 12 and a year and 2 months for 12 to 15, people who want success long term will still choose to train their fighters because training will balance itself out, you still will get to 15 at the same rate, however the first part is quicker and the second part is slower.

To clarify again I think we are on the same side where as we both want to have fights at a young age, my point however is that it is difficult to consistently fight at young age and still be competitive in the end game and while more experienced managers are okay with this sacrifice, a lot of new managers will find it boring.

[wayne95]

Ill weigh in more on account of being the newest person to post with regards to this topic.

 

A lot of vets seem to forget how hard it is to make money when youre starting out. Ive stated this in several other threads the past few months. If you arent a writer, have no graphic design skills or arent willing to sell VIP time, its VERY difficult to make money.

 

I see a lot of super new players with less than a dollar in their bank account after a few short weeks.

 

Folks should be encouraging new players to stick around, whether that means mentoring them, or by coming up with smart design ideas to help keep them afloat.

 

More new people is absolutely necessary to keeping the game going, without a steady influx of new players, I fear for the future.

you could ask for the well established managers for cash.. I've been sending cash to newcomers just to help them with training.. It's not deadly to ask for help. But I understand most managers will ignore you..

[actionjackson]

"2) Fighters should start with $15 - 20k, so new managers can afford to make an 18 yo, train him for 2 - 3 months, and then start fighting - at this point, the 18 yo is fully fight-capable and will earn enough money to pay for his stuff."

 

This is a great point, plus provide access to higher quality public gyms and that would be a good start.

[DeadDisney]

"2) Fighters should start with $15 - 20k, so new managers can afford to make an 18 yo, train him for 2 - 3 months, and then start fighting - at this point, the 18 yo is fully fight-capable and will earn enough money to pay for his stuff."

 

This is a great point, plus provide access to higher quality public gyms and that would be a good start.

Totally agree with both you and with Xyel.

 

Imo, the three biggest problems for rookies:

 

1) Starting cash for fighters is way too low. It's like we're stuck in 2009. Gym dues aren't 50-300 dollars per week anymore.

 

2) Not enough good public gyms because managers aren't allowed to own two of the same type of companies. I would gladly run a public gym at a loss just to help the newer managers out. And I know I'm not the only manager who feels this way.

 

 

3) An outdated wiki and poor mentorship model. There needs to be a one stop shop where new managers can learn not only about how the game works from Mike's perspective, but how it works for those of us who play the game competitively.

 

This information should be easily available to a beginning manager and not scattered haphazardly in the noob section.

 

And ditch the current model of Spin and Win credits for mentorship guided wins for mentors. It's being abused by too many "mentors" and probably drives away more managers than it actually helps.

[Monsieur.Camara]

I didn`t know the Mentorship program was being abused by mentors. This makes me sad. My mentor/sensei is an avid participant in the Mentor Program but he overloads you with information so definitely works very hard to earn his spins.

 

I got a few managers reaching out to me about Tycoon Times being abused for free Hype Boost every Monday but cannot discuss with Marius as he has me blocked. No point looking into it if he won`t comment. When it comes to the Times the person that runs it has full veto power ap Mike so nothing we can do there.

[Rambo]

double starting cash at most, nothing more than that. just need to be a much better, modernized new user guide.

 

if yall cant see how the slow pace ultimately stagnates the games population, you're stuck in the tycoon box and need to look outside of it.

 

you shouldn't have to have a fighter for 2 IRL years before he can even start to compete with top 100 p4p fighters... think about that... 24 months... it's a fuckin prison sentence lol. you wanna create a fighter and fight at the top? better conscript yourself and strap down for next 2 or 3 years. what kind of shit?

 

doesn't impact me either way, ninja been auto-piloting for years. pace of game doesn't impact the rate I play (exception of shelving my fighters for months to compensate for the training time I lost in prime years by fighting early)

 

just pointing put the tragically obvious limitation to the speed of this game. nobody is required to fight more. you play and accept fights at your own pace.

 

the slow catch up rate, the mass gap in learning speed between 340 to 350, 350 to 360, etc. It creates a massive hole for ID orgs to replace the cans/scrubs/retirees that can't be replaced for almost an IRL year or 2 as well.

[Shortstacker]

double starting cash at most, nothing more than that. just need to be a much better, modernized new user guide.

 

if yall cant see how the slow pace ultimately stagnates the games population, you're stuck in the tycoon box and need to look outside of it.

 

you shouldn't have to have a fighter for 2 IRL years before he can even start to compete with top 100 p4p fighters... think about that... 24 months... it's a fuckin prison sentence lol. you wanna create a fighter and fight at the top? better conscript yourself and strap down for next 2 or 3 years. what kind of shit?

 

doesn't impact me either way, ninja been auto-piloting for years. pace of game doesn't impact the rate I play (exception of shelving my fighters for months to compensate for the training time I lost in prime years by fighting early)

 

just pointing put the tragically obvious limitation to the speed of this game. nobody is required to fight more. you play and accept fights at your own pace.

 

the slow catch up rate, the mass gap in learning speed between 340 to 350, 350 to 360, etc. It creates a massive hole for ID orgs to replace the cans/scrubs/retirees that can't be replaced for almost an IRL year or 2 as well.

You nailed it Rambo.

 

I’m all for patience and slowly training up your fighters, but at a certain point it becomes ridiculous.

[actionjackson]

double starting cash at most, nothing more than that. just need to be a much better, modernized new user guide.

 

if yall cant see how the slow pace ultimately stagnates the games population, you're stuck in the tycoon box and need to look outside of it.

 

you shouldn't have to have a fighter for 2 IRL years before he can even start to compete with top 100 p4p fighters... think about that... 24 months... it's a fuckin prison sentence lol. you wanna create a fighter and fight at the top? better conscript yourself and strap down for next 2 or 3 years. what kind of shit?

 

doesn't impact me either way, ninja been auto-piloting for years. pace of game doesn't impact the rate I play (exception of shelving my fighters for months to compensate for the training time I lost in prime years by fighting early)

 

just pointing put the tragically obvious limitation to the speed of this game. nobody is required to fight more. you play and accept fights at your own pace.

 

the slow catch up rate, the mass gap in learning speed between 340 to 350, 350 to 360, etc. It creates a massive hole for ID orgs to replace the cans/scrubs/retirees that can't be replaced for almost an IRL year or 2 as well.

 

Name another game you've been playing for 11 years straight? Any chance the slow pace creates buy in as you become more and more invested in your fighters over time?

[Rambo]

Name another game you've been playing for 11 years straight? Any chance the slow pace creates buy in as you become more and more invested in your fighters over time?

If you want a very small user base to appeal to a small niche of people, here we are.

 

what % of managers do you think create fighters and retire them? what % do that, and re-create new fighters?

 

how many rage quit after X amount of months and X amount of fights when they realize their favorite fighter has no heart or power and they remember how long it took to get him there?

 

tbh would prefer to avoid the subject cuz no need to stir the pot but the game's progression is too damn slow.

[actionjackson]

I agree something needs to be done just don't think the pace is the problem. New managers will say it is but they'll quit anyway at some point when they never reach the top 50 at any game pace because they don't put the time in to really learn the game or get into the social aspects of the game. More money, better training, better mentorship program and user guide would be a start in my mind. Unfortunately text based fighting games are a niche but I would hate to see this one ruined. Anyway I'm done discussing this, to each his own and enjoy the weekend all!

[10thPlanetKT]

I'm not for a learning speed boost, I wold abuse that so bad and my fighters would all be red belts lol. I am in favor of an extra training slot per day (6 more sessions) a week. It is less complicated to be honest.

[Shortstacker]

I'm not for a learning speed boost, I wold abuse that so bad and my fighters would all be red belts lol. I am in favor of an extra training slot per day (6 more sessions) a week. It is less complicated to be honest.

 

Not a bad idea at all!

 

Less coding work for Mike and it would require more thought into rest days and such.

[10thPlanetKT]

Yea I agree it would be easier. Increasing the game speed may seem a genuine idea in theory but it doesn't solve the issue of public and cozad gyms being of poor quality. So private gym owners with the increased learning speed would just smash all the newbies snd build projects at light speed. However if you give an extra training session, and if Mike improves public gyms qualities like he is working on right now, then the game would be better off in my opinion.

[jjsquirrel]

Lots of talk about how cozad/public gyms suck. Which they do. Improving that would probably be good, but I don't see how it would fundamentally change anything. Privately trained fighters will still beat the public ones. New managers fighting each other will have equally crappy fighters regardless the exact level of crappy. Did I miss something, why is this talked about as the solution to all problems?

 

Increasing learning speed means you get to the "endgame" quicker. I can accept that being a good thing in itself for most people (even if I don't really feel so personally). But apart from that I'm seeing only negatives. Training time lost to fighting now hurts more relative to before. We will see even more longcooking fighters for openid which means more grind carefully managing your training sessions to avoid depops. This means more fighters staying out of the id orgs and also for the ones who doesn't a shorter window fighting there before getting into openid. I think one of the nice things with this game is how it plays different at different levels and moving more of the total playtime into openid just means it will become less varied.

 

Better tutorial including actual fights etc. as discussed elsewhere - yes now we are talking something that could make more new players stay. If I was a game owner with plumber bills to pay this would feel like a higher priority to me.

[10thPlanetKT]

#1 guess I could create a more refined fighter development guide in the noob section next month. I know the engine very well. Though my point is if you increase the game speed it will be like inflation. Yes the guy at the bottom progresses spot faster, but instead of seeing a project ready in 3-4 months, private gym projects will be ready to compete and will jump right in after a month. You think it is bad now, wait till you see a 12/12/12 fighter in just over a month vs a 25 year old with a manager still trying to learn the game. We all know how that bout usually ends. I'm not in favor of that at all.

 

Yes Private gyms will always best public ones. However I remember when I was ranked 1000 and read all of the guides and was able to best some ranked way higher than me without a private gym at the entry project ID stage. The more skilled fighter doesn't always win. However by increasing cozad'a quality and capability. It could help with noobs who don't have the money to spend on public gyms (which is why they quit after awhile). My suggestion is a semi private system where top managers could get paid $$$ 'to lend over spare training bots to public gyms for the gym owner increasing sparring quality I guess.

 

#3 This game is sink or swim, if you don't win enough you don't have the money to get free agents to farm laundry and afford an elite private gym etc. etc. However we could at least make it easier on the newbies who are still learning at the 500+ ranked level and actually give them a chance to develop there fighters and not have to worry about money or ineffective training constantly. New players should get more money at the start as well.

[Rambo]

Increasing learning speed means you get to the "endgame" quicker. I can accept that being a good thing in itself for most people (even if I don't really feel so personally). But apart from that I'm seeing only negatives. Training time lost to fighting now hurts more relative to before. We will see even more longcooking fighters for openid which means more grind carefully managing your training sessions to avoid depops. This means more fighters staying out of the id orgs and also for the ones who doesn't a shorter window fighting there before getting into openid.

Fighter goes from age 18 to 22 in 1 IRL. It takes 2 IRL years to max out your fighter. training is not that enjoyable or rewarding to drag on for that long. people come here to fight or play Dana White. When you're dealing with competitive play, the whole thing needs a substantial increase in speed and fighter rollover.

 

The silent majority STRONGLY disagree with the forums narrative.

 

Idgaf either way tbh. things not changing easier for me cuz I'm a dinosaur here.

[Houdini]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:00 PM, Xyel said:

2) Fighters should start with $15 - 20k, so new managers can afford to make an 18 yo, train him for 2 - 3 months, and then start fighting - at this point, the 18 yo is fully fight-capable and will earn enough money to pay for his stuff.

Any situation has 2 sides of the coin: increase of start money a little is good but 15-20k... it will be a lot of abuse with laundy from "1 day life" fighters in thouse case.