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Fight Engine Discussion


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#1 MMATycoon

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:34 PM

I'm aware that people want another tweak to the ground game, specifically related to standups / escapes.

 

I am perfectly happy to increase GNP success and reduce damage and / or add a damage / accuracy slider for GNP. If people want escapes toned down a bit too, cool.

 

So fire away then, if you have any opinions on the matter.


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#2 bjornmma1

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:36 PM

I'm not a huge fan of changing the game engine too often. There are more strikers than ground guys and now making groundgame more efficient would work against the creations that took place recently. I mean, the engine doesn't suck, you just have to slider accordingly. That being said, if there is a small tweak to make the groundgame a few percentages stronger, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

The two things about groundgame that could be done are in my opinion:

1) less standups

2) make it a bit less random ( finishes )


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#3 shortfuse122829

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:56 PM

Escapes are overpowered IMO but rather than nerf them I think they need to be under "finish/control" in the heirarchy.

 
Right now there isn't much risk to spamming escape attempts, I'm seeing guys use ref stand-up sliders going 70+ control & counter but also go 80 get up & get almost an instant escape multiple times in a fight. So IMO if you can use counter/control AND instant escape it's hard to beat.
 
If escapes were like subs where you need more "finish" to try them you'd risk giving up dominant positions & would have to be wiser about trying for them. Considering you have to open up your guard to work submissions & also to try to get back to your feet I'd say logically it makes sense. 
 
That's a way easier fix then nerfing & realizing later it was nerfed too much & then having to strengthen escapes again while searching for a good balance. Let them remain effective, but make it more of a risk/reward

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mrblack, on 13 November 2011 - 01:14 PM, said: i take the fights if i think i can win them and wont take them if i dont want to.

#4 SonnyMuchacho

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:59 PM

Escapes should be the focus right now. Sooooo overpowered. I've never seen ground fighters at this much of a disadvantage.
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#5 markyosullivan

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:00 PM

I'd like the following to be implemented.

 

 

We need to stop submission / takedown spammers

1. Make it impossible to land a submission / takedown if the fighter is at 0% energy

2. Take off energy for every submission / takedown attempt, spamming either is completely unrealistic.

 

 

Counter & Control is OP, please decrease it's effectiveness

I've had fighters who aren't great on the ground some how transition and improve positions and stop their opponent (who is a better ground fighter) transitioning to a better position / subbing my fighter.

 

 

Escapes

 

 

Escapes are overpowered IMO but rather than nerf them I think they need to be under "finish/control" in the heirarchy.

 
If escapes were like subs where you need more "finish" to try them you'd risk giving up dominant positions & would have to be wiser about trying for them. Considering you have to open up your guard to work submissions & also to try to get back to your feet I'd say logically it makes sense. 
 
That's a way easier fix then nerfing & realizing later it was nerfed too much & then having to strengthen escapes again while searching for a good balance. Let them remain effective, but make it more of a risk/reward

 

 

 

Stand ups

Should not happen unless there's been a minute with no strikes / subs on the ground.


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#6 UniConor

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:02 PM

Referee standups are still a problem in my eyes. I had a fight recently I would link but on my phone currently. It said "McGee postures up" the referee has stood the two up for lack of action.

Seems weird to me, maybe we could tone down the referee stand ups again or at least change the flavour text that a stand up happens on the back off so it doesnt look like so silly.

Also instant escapes off a takedown could be worked a bit better, they seem very random with the same chance of happening whether the takedown lands in guard, half guars or even side control.

I am yet to see somebody who achieved a takedown, an opponent attempts to escape instantly but fails and the takedowner gets a more dominant position like the back for example, which leads me to maybe suggest a whole new thing which could tie in the escapes.

"Scrambling"

Same idea as escapes but with a bit more substance and bit more off a toss up, fighter on the bottom now doesnt just "escape" to his feet. He initiates a scramble where there is a possibility of him getting to his feet again, the possibly of either fighter gaining a dominant position and a possibility of either fighter attempting a submission.

I think this fleshes out our ground game a lot more, makes it more like real life.
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#7 markyosullivan

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:02 PM

 

Escapes are overpowered IMO but rather than nerf them I think they need to be under "finish/control" in the heirarchy.

 

If escapes were like subs where you need more "finish" to try them you'd risk giving up dominant positions & would have to be wiser about trying for them. Considering you have to open up your guard to work submissions & also to try to get back to your feet I'd say logically it makes sense. 

 

 

Please this. It should be possible to counter someone who is going for an escape and potentially get their back.


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#8 shortfuse122829

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:15 PM

I don't think you need "finish" to stand from guard top nor is there an extreme amount of risk. Not sure if this is possible but maybe remove GNP from bottom & replace it with escape?

 
In about 1200 fights I've seen guys GNP from bottom MAYBE 3 times. So it could go
 
agg/counter
 
finish/control 
 
strike/adv pos
 
sub/escape
 
 
 
have that be the ground bottom heirarchy IF POSSIBLE

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mrblack, on 13 November 2011 - 01:14 PM, said: i take the fights if i think i can win them and wont take them if i dont want to.

#9 UniConor

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:16 PM

Stand ups

Should not happen unless there's been a minute with no strikes / subs on the ground.

I agree but to clarify my opinion attempts should also reset the timer. It's still activity in my opinion, just not scoring any damage.


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#10 Wolf

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:17 PM

GnP accuracy needs a bit of a beef up. Say in guard, it should be fairly simple to land some low damage GnP. 

 

Insta-escapes are OP, they should be toned down or if they fail to land the fighter who attempted should be put in a much more disadvantaged position. Is it possible to make it an energy issue? So like, if you get taken down in the first minute of round 1 you have a higher chance of landing an escape, but in round 3 when you are 0% energy an insta escape is almost impossible

 

Takedowns still seem hard to land, maybe make them a bit more accurate. 


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#11 shortfuse122829

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:36 PM

I'd like the following to be implemented.

 

 

We need to stop submission spammers

1. Make it impossible to land a submission if the fighter is at 0% energy

2. Take off energy for every submission attempt, submission spamming is completely unrealistic.

 

 

Counter & Control is OP, please decrease it's effectiveness

I've had fighters who aren't great on the ground some how transition and improve positions and stop their opponent (who is a better ground fighter) transitioning to a better position / subbing my fighter.

 

 

Escapes

 
 

 

 

Stand ups

Should not happen unless there's been a minute with no strikes / subs on the ground.

 

 

Personally I'd like to see how my suggestion impacts ref stand-ups before we'd nerf them again. I mean maybe guys would stop going for escapes and just go back to using ref stand-up sliders I'm not really sure how it'd impact people's game-planning. But I'd say having to use finish and taking more of a risk to get back to your feet could help ref stand-ups immensely on it's own. I don't think the ground game is too terrible when you have two ground fighters squaring off because both are taking risks to keep the fight on the ground. I think making guys use finish to get escapes would have that same effect but to a lesser degree


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mrblack, on 13 November 2011 - 01:14 PM, said: i take the fights if i think i can win them and wont take them if i dont want to.

#12 gwad12345

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:39 PM

The biggest things I think are insta-escapes. They are overpowered and I think they should be done away with completely.

 

The other thing I think is ref standups. The last update did have an effect and I can see the difference but it still needs to be nerfed more. 

 

Then like shortfuse said, force strikers to be more active on the ground if they want to get the escape.


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#13 Skipper

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 04:45 PM

I'd like the following to be implemented.

 

 

We need to stop submission spammers

1. Make it impossible to land a submission if the fighter is at 0% energy

2. Take off energy for every submission attempt, submission spamming is completely unrealistic.

 

This!  I'd also like to see the same for a takedown spammers, seems very unrealistic for them to get their takedown after the 38th attempt too. 

 

As for everything else, like others have already said a small tweak to ref stands ups and escapes would be good.


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#14 YerMaw

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 05:19 PM

In regards to GnP:

- definitely increase accuracy

- instead of toning down damage, tone down damage relative to the GnP skill level: so a fighter with low GnP will benefit from the increased accuracy but won't be quite as effective in inflicting damage as someone with high GnP

 

And also I'd like to see some guillotine choke attempts as a counter to takedowns (which again would be more reflective of real MMA, as well as the increased prevalence of the guillotine choke in recent years) - if a fighter is shooting for the legs invariably the neck is exposed, here's an example:

 

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#15 skull

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 06:09 PM

These guys getting instant standups prob have elite ++ escapes from where escape training was boosted. I got one guy at exceptional and he's nearly escaped every takedown in the past few fights since it's been at that level. Which is kinda how it's suppose to work right? But what exactly stops escapes, defensive grappling I guess? Transitions literally have 0 to do with instant escapes I do know that. Or does it go by if the escape skill is higher than your opponents takedown skill? So many questions LOL
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#16 gwad12345

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:01 PM

These guys getting instant standups prob have elite ++ escapes from where escape training was boosted. I got one guy at exceptional and he's nearly escaped every takedown in the past few fights since it's been at that level. Which is kinda how it's suppose to work right? But what exactly stops escapes, defensive grappling I guess? Transitions literally have 0 to do with instant escapes I do know that. Or does it go by if the escape skill is higher than your opponents takedown skill? So many questions LOL

By that logic with elite punches you should never miss a strike and with elite takedown defense you should never be taken down.


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#17 RichyRandy

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:05 PM

I'd like the following to be implemented.

 

 

We need to stop submission / takedown spammers

1. Make it impossible to land a submission when at 0 energy

 

 

While i would agree to this,This would cause some disadvantages,For example if someones top skill is their submission,Their opponent can wear them down by body shots or other methods and lets say when the fighter takes them down and has to transition into the needed position which will need energy,Once they are where they need to be they cant win due to energy loss.However thats just my opinion and maybe im being stupid.


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#18 markyosullivan

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:09 PM

While i would agree to this,This would cause some disadvantages,For example if someones top skill is their submission,Their opponent can wear them down by body shots or other methods and lets say when the fighter takes them down and has to transition into the needed position which will need energy,Once they are where they need to be they cant win due to energy loss.However thats just my opinion and maybe im being stupid.

 

Takedown accuracy at the elite level needs to increase for it to be fair. Right now if you go to the ground there's no skill to it at all when it comes to getting a submission, I've seen two ground fighter simply spam submissions until one of them got a lucky roll to complete the submission and get the victory, if you had to be cautious on the ground and not go for too many submissions because it could leave you more open to losing by submission if your fighter has 0% energy, I think it'd greatly improve the strategic aspect of the ground game.


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#19 PBR

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:20 PM

my last fight when trying ground game http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=800709 -- the numbers just suck elite wrestling, takedowns and gnp only to land 6 out of 26 takedown attempts -- 1 out of 10 gnp strikes -- now given my sliders probably werent the best set cause havent paid much attention to ground game or sliders that much in long time and knowing jlp probably has great stats along with better slider knowledge but still those numbers suck


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#20 skull

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:49 PM

By that logic with elite punches you should never miss a strike and with elite takedown defense you should never be taken down.

not if your opponent has elite takedown d or striking d. What I meant was if your escapes are that much higher than whatever is suppose to stop them of your opponents (defensive grappling?)then you should get the escape most of the time. Maybe no one has figured out the right ground sliders to keep it from happening.

This is what everyone wanted a while back and once it's "fixed" (the engine) again there will be a new problem no one likes.
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