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Check this anti gun bullsheit out.


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#1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:18 AM

OK this is propaganda from ABC news. This study could have been interesting if it was on the up and up and not manipulated to get the results they wanted to push their agenda. Before we get o the video here are some problems. They want to prove that having a gun doesnt help in a bad situation. They get people with no training or experience at all and use them as guinnepigs. Most gun owners practice a lot. So these people do not represent anyone who would really be carrying a gun. Even with the class they put them in they are still only touching the guys for the first time. A few hours isnt enough to get comfortable around a gun or know how to use it which again doesnt represent anyone who has a gun. Curtainly not a Carry Permit. Then they put them in a room with a large group of people who gets attacked to see how effective they are. The problem with this is the gunman walks right by everyone else to shoot this guy. In a real situation the gunman wouldnt know this is the guy with a gun. The gun man wouldnt know who has a gun. But here he knows and busts in and gets the drop on him.

This would be like saying Mixed Martial Arts are worthless and proving it by having a big guys attack GSP from behind. When someone gets the drop on you of course nothing is going to prepare you to deal with it. In a real situation the gun man breaks in and maybe shoots a couple people and the guy with the gun puts him down or at least starts firing and makes him run for cover which keeps him from shooting more people. But they couldnt show that could they?


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#2

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:28 AM

How do you know most gun owners practice a lot? What studies/research are you citing?

The rest is sound, though there is a severe lack of 'what happens to everyone else around them when two people with guns start trading shots?'.

And just for giggles: http://www.something...safety-tips.php
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#3

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

Thats from experience. Anyone has has paid the money and taken the time to get and conceal and carry permit is a avid shooter. I live in a massive gun state and know lots of people with the permits and they shoot on a regular basis. They have also had a gun for a very long time. Unlike this wqere the people were never comfortable with them. I was not raised around guns like most where i live. But it took me a logn time to get comfortable even being close to one. Now i am comfortable around them and am much more effective. Juding the effectiveness of the entire country because of 6 Cherry picked Barney Fifes is piss poor journalism at its best. The best part was the guy "crawling" by the gunman who walks right by him and straight towards the guy with the "Hidden gun".
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:00 AM

Even the guy who got his gun tangled in his shirt could have still saved the day if the gunman wasnt told to go after him specifically. There is still a very good chance he clears his gun and puts the gunman down at some point. The only thing his gun represents is a chance to end it early. It doesnt make the situation worse. Everyone will flee and some will make it some wont. If the killer is stopped the number of those who make it is far greater.

One of the problems with human nature is we tend to not give a damn when tregedy is avoided. We are quick to put a body count on the 9-11 attacks. But when the FBI sold a fake bomb to terrorists and arrested them trying to detonate it. It isnt nearly as big a deal and there is no number put on the lives that were saved. If this demo was real and the attacker killed all 30 in the room it makes the news like the school and theatre shootings did. But if the guy with the gun prevents it or minimized it. He dont give the same amount of attention or credit him with saving 30 lives. So Human nature alone will never allow us to give any credit to guns when they are used proper and save lives. We as people will always flock to the negative and dwell on it over shadowing the positive. A person with a gun ahnd stop 9 out of 10 mass killings and yet that 1 out of 10 will get blowed up and people will never realize what was prevent in those other 9 or how much worse it could have been.

Banning guns isnt going to fix anything. It also isnt going to be the end of the world for pro gun people. Both sides need to stop being so dramtic and use their heads and look for real solutions. Banning guns is ignorant and isnt a solution. Stopping mentally ill people from getting them is a good start and reasonable. We need real solutions not politics. I dont mind a little waiting period or a reasonable limit of clip size, or a required training course, a required data base to track the gun transactions would be nice. But dont expect me to agree to something that only punishes me and doesnt provide any solution to the problem.
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#5

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:06 AM

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#6

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:48 AM

Don't get geopolitical, because you use the FBI 'fake bomb sell' as an example whereas the very terrorist threat you refer to is a result of funding, training and general enabling by the CIA and foreign policy at large.

Stick to the domestic gun debate ;)

EDIT: Banning guns is not a solution in the USA where gun culture is a tremendous force and the constitution explicitly refers to the right. It IS a solution in other countries where these factors are not prevalent. You're definitely right both sides need to drop the hyperbole and come to some sort of solution for the sake of safety as opposed to arguing for the sake of morality or 'winning'.
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#7

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:41 AM

How was i getting "Geopolitical" I used it as an example of saved lived not being given the same attention as lost lives. I think you got my point you are just trying to change the subject. Not saying i agree or disagree only that it has nothing to do with my point na dmy point was very clear. Even used another example to make sure it was clear. Point is as long as people ignore saved lives and dwell on lost lives it makes it impossible to make an informed opinion on what does and doesnt work

Keep in mind im a relatively new gun owner. I used to not under stand why pro gun people are so hell bent on not giving and inch on even the slightest restriction. But then you see first hands why they are like that. You have anti gun people who are so hell bent on taking peoples rights that they will lie and fabricate evidence to get their way. Like this video for example. If they really believed they are right then why such a piss poor demonstration? So because of this gun owners look at even the slightest restriction as then being softened up for the kill. Give an inch and they will take a mile. I personally wish they would make guns be licensed to their owners and at least tracked. I currently can sell you a gun and dont have to tell anyone i no longer have it and you dont have to report to anyone you bought it. I have sold guns before and those guns 4 years later are still officially in my name. There is what i call common sense rules i would like to see applied. But we all know anti gun nuts would not be happy and still push for more and more until they get the ban they want. So because of that both sides become unreasonable.
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:27 AM

Anyone who thinks allowing private gun ownership makes people safer is an idiot. The best example that gun nuts can come up with is Switzerland. Switzerland may be far safer than the U.S., but it has the highest gun murder rate in industrialized Europe. All of its gun-banning neighbors have less gun violence.

In the developed world, it is not even close. America has 4 times the gun murders of the second most dangerous developed country (Canada). It is 40 times more dangerous than most industrialized countries.

Further stats show there is absolutely no reason to need to protect yourself. The vast majority of gun murders are not committed in the act of another crime like robbery. They are committed against a person who the perpetrator has a close personal relationship with. Not only that, but studies have shown that simply owning a gun greatly increases your chances of being the victim of a gun crime. That gun you have for protection actually puts you at more risk than it prevents.

In the UK, most police officers don't even carry guns, yet only 3 police officers are killed in the line of duty by guns on average each year. America can't say that. Britain responded to mass shootings on their home soil by banning private gun ownership completely and it has been an overwhelming success.

Americans are still clinging to this idea that guns are an effective means of protection. They ignore all forms of logic that say otherwise. Yes, the Constitution is a great and wonderful document. The Bill of Rights as well. However, we need to keep in mind that times change. What was best for the country in days gone by is not necessarily best now. At its founding, America relied on militias for self defense. Guns were needed to be able to call an army quickly. This is no longer the case.

The only exception to an all-out ban should be hunters and members of a gun club. If you are the member of a gun club, you should have to undergo a background check and adhere to strict licensing. It should be much harder to get a gun license than a driving license. Any gun a licensed owner has should be kept at the gun club, where a government agency will oversee the security of all weapons. Hunters should need to undergo similar licensing. All hunting weapons must be kept unloaded in a locked cabinet. Ammunition should be kept in a separate locked drawer that requires a different key to open it. These keys cannot be attached to the same key ring. These kinds of restrictions have worked well in other countries.

All handguns and assault weapons should be banned completely. They can too easily be used to commit crimes and make society more dangerous for everyone.
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#9 PBR

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

All handguns and assault weapons should be banned completely. They can too easily be used to commit crimes and make society more dangerous for everyone.


well i was gonna try and stay out of this thread cause i already have major discussions about this going on in other forums -- but your totally wrong in most of what your saying -- and uk might have less gun murders but they out number the us in most other types of murders and blow away the us in violent crime rate, even with being way less populated -- so the above isnt true

Anyone who thinks allowing private gun ownership makes people safer is an idiot. The best example that gun nuts can come up with is Switzerland. Switzerland may be far safer than the U.S., but it has the highest gun murder rate in industrialized Europe. All of its gun-banning neighbors have less gun violence.


again this is your own thoughts not true at all -- gun-banning countries may have less gun violence but they have way more violent crime rate period

Further stats show there is absolutely no reason to need to protect yourself. The vast majority of gun murders are not committed in the act of another crime like robbery. They are committed against a person who the perpetrator has a close personal relationship with. Not only that, but studies have shown that simply owning a gun greatly increases your chances of being the victim of a gun crime. That gun you have for protection actually puts you at more risk than it prevents.


no reason to protect yourself? wow that is probably the single most crazy thing i ever heard -- and i dont know where your getting your stats or studies from but they are wrong totally -- most close relationship killings are not done by gun at all -- and its proven that states where people can open carry the crime rate and murder rate has dropped drastically -- even states that allow conceal weapons have dropped -- states and cities that have gun restrictions the crime rate continues to climb such as chicago -- do you think for one single second a criminal is gonna obey a gun ban or law -- lmao

In the UK, most police officers don't even carry guns, yet only 3 police officers are killed in the line of duty by guns on average each year. America can't say that. Britain responded to mass shootings on their home soil by banning private gun ownership completely and it has been an overwhelming success.


i agree it has been a success by causing less gun killings but not a success at stopping of causing less crime -- uk blows away america in violent crime rate -- and america has almost what 3 times the population

Americans are still clinging to this idea that guns are an effective means of protection. They ignore all forms of logic that say otherwise.


what forms of logic say otherwise -- now not just what you think is logic -- show the logic

now i do agree that some tighter gun restrictions are needed but most of the public or people that dont know are misinformed -- everyone that buys a gun new goes through a background check period -- only time you dont go through a background check is public sale person to person -- this is one thing that needs looked at and handled -- also to people that think high cap mags or banning works lets take a look at columbine massacre -- it happen in the middle of the last gun ban didnt stop them one bit -- as for high cap mags one of the killers carried 13 ten round mags and shot 96 times -- so high cap mags made no difference -- also the shooting there happened because the bombs they planted didnt go off so the shooting was a secondary measure for them -- also this massacre was so bad cause police and swat sit outside the school for over 30 mins while they continued killing inside the school -- but yet you say we dont need protection -- here is what one armed principal did to save his school -- On Oct. 1, 1997, in Pearl, Miss., Joel Myrick, the assistant principal of Pearl High School, ran to his car to retrieve his .45-caliber handgun and proceeded to confront Luke Woodham, who had killed his mother, then drove to the school to shoot others. When Myrick confronted Woodham, the carnage was stopped. -- because of that principal 2 people were shot, no mass killing happened --- people forget evil will do evil no matter what -- also dont want to sound racist or whatever but if you dont live in america then you dont know what its like to have the right -- your probably brain washed already from your own countries thoughts and laws like piers morgan
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:43 AM

now for people saying armed citizens never help only make things worse -- here are just a few i found with couple minutes research

how about these were citizens stopped killers

armed citizens actually saved the cop http://cdllife.com/2...shooting-spree/

On Dec. 17, 1991, Thomas Glenn Terry, who was at the Shoney's restaurant in Anniston, Ala., and carrying his .45 caliber handgun, confronted a trio of would-be robbers and possible assassins. In a firefight, he killed one and wounded a second. The armed robbers, one of whom was wanted for murder, had 20 customers and employees in a walk-in freezer.

On Oct. 1, 1997, in Pearl, Miss., Joel Myrick, the assistant principal of Pearl High School, ran to his car to retrieve his .45-caliber handgun and proceeded to confront Luke Woodham, who had killed his mother, then drove to the school to shoot others. When Myrick confronted Woodham, the carnage was stopped.

On April 24, 1998, at the Parker Middle School dance, held at a restaurant in Edinboro, Pa., restaurant owner James Strand confronted shooter Andrew Jerome Wurst, who had shot to death a teacher and wounded three other individuals. The confrontation prompted Wurst to stop his killings.

On Dec. 9, 2007, Jeanne Assam, an armed security guard, fired her weapon at Matthew Murray, who had murdered four people at the New Life Christian Church and the nearby Youth with a Mission in Colorado Springs. Murray, who by then had killed two and wounded four others, shot himself after being wounded by Assam, who shot him with her personal weapon.

On May 25, 2008, Ernesto Villagomez entered a bar and proceeded to gun down four people, killing two at the crowded Players Bar and Grill in Winnemucca, Nev. An armed patron at the bar drew his licensed handgun and fired at Villagomez, killing him and preventing further bloodshed.

On Dec. 11, 2012, Nick Melli, who was at the Clackamas Mall near Portland, Ore., drew his licensed pistol and aimed at Jacob Tyler Roberts, who had fired at least 20 rounds, killing two and injuring others. Upon seeing Melli aiming at him, Roberts stopped his killing spree and killed himself.

Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.

Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.

A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.

A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.

A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.

http://gunssavelives...ing-spree-2009/


you know there are tons more but they dont make the news cause thwarting a massacre isnt news but someone that gets by doing one is --- also look at where all the massacres in america have been -- they have been at gun free zones, another words no guns allowed -- take the aurora shooting this guy drove over 12 miles or so to century movie theater (one of the very few theaters that are gun free) when there was even bigger theaters much closer to his house with larger crowds but they are not gun free zones
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#11 PBR

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:45 AM

here are some other facts

1. 151 Victims of Mass Shootings in 2012 (11,493 people died from gun homicides)

2. In America on average, nearly 12,000 people die every year in DUI-related accidents.

3. Smoking kills on average, 1200 Americans every day (on average of 400k a year)

4. The highest speed limit in the USA is 75 mph (Texas just passed 85 mph on one stretch of freeway and is considering lowering it back to 75) press release says that in 2010, 10,530 people lost their lives in speeding-related non dui car accidents in the U.S.

well it looks like more people are killed from drunk driving and smoking cigs then guns so how come alcohol and cigs are not banned or made illegal?

so with the highest speed limit being 75 in usa why do they make cars able to go faster than that? how come cars or not banned on having the ability to go faster then the nations speed limit? why are they produced and products made that allow them to go in some cases 3 times the speed limit? how come this is allowed?

well i will tell you why -- MONEY -- the usa makes boatloads of money off of alcohol, cigs with taxes and traffic tickets -- if this stuff kills the same amount or more people in the usa than guns why are they allowed? but yet they want to do away with guns, this above should be dealt away with also cause it kills just as many and more people. some will say well it doesnt kill in masses like guns, lol. does it matter on that in the end it kills just as many or more


Consequences of Gun Control:

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: Uganda 1955-1970
Victims: Christians, Political Rivals NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 300,000 INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law: 1955-1970

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: SOVIET UNION: 1929-1953
Victims: Anti-Communists; Anti-Stalinist’s:
NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 20,000,000 MILLION INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law: 1929

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: NAZI GERMANY & Occupied Europe 1933-1945
Victims: Jews, Gypsies, Anti-Nazis: NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 13,000,000 MILLION INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law:1928-1938

we should remember history and learn from it
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

Our government provided training and weapons to al qaeda and other terrorists groups (will give them the benefit of the doubt in maybe they didnt know were terrorist at that time) -- also a fact they gave 1000's and 1000's (over 2000 that is known) of guns to drug cartels and when it came to light they claimed it was a failed botch to catch them -- but yet this is same government that wants to take away weapons from its citizens while they arm the terrorist and cartels -- but yet you see no reason why we might need to stand up to them someday

http://en.wikipedia....tates_v._Miller

pretty interesting read there -- here is one part very interesting

The U.S Government appealed the decision and on March 30, 1939, the U.S. Supreme Court heard the case. Attorneys for the United States argued four points:

1. The NFA is intended as a revenue-collecting measure and therefore within the authority of the Department of the Treasury.
2. The defendants transported the shotgun from Oklahoma to Arkansas, and therefore used it in interstate commerce.
3. The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia.
4. The "double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230" was never used in any militia organization.

notice #3 -- now this is the us government attorneys saying this
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#13 PBR

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

now for those bringing up uk and countries with bans and how it has help so much

Posted Image
Posted Image

sure doesnt look like it has made a big difference really


The most important part of all this is a massacre is a story. Thwarting a massacre isn’t. -- this is the problem and why you dont hear the good stuff about guns or see how armed citizens help stop the bad guys ----- evil will do evil -- criminals do not obey gun laws or any laws period nor will they ever -- yes i am an avid gun owner and lover for sport and protection -- the major problem here is what everyone is not seeing -- what does these massacres have in common? -- people with mental illness issues thats what needs to be address, mental illness is the problem
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

i agree it has been a success by causing less gun killings but not a success at stopping of causing less crime -- uk blows away america in violent crime rate -- and america has almost what 3 times the population


The murder rate in America is 4.8 (all forms of intentional homicide included, gun or not). In Britain, it is 1.2. So your argument that Brits are just killing each other in different ways is not true.

here are some other facts


Consequences of Gun Control:

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: Uganda 1955-1970
Victims: Christians, Political Rivals NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 300,000 INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law: 1955-1970

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: SOVIET UNION: 1929-1953
Victims: Anti-Communists; Anti-Stalinist’s:
NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 20,000,000 MILLION INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law: 1929

PERPETRATOR or GOVERNMENT DOING the KILLING: NAZI GERMANY & Occupied Europe 1933-1945
Victims: Jews, Gypsies, Anti-Nazis: NUMBER Murdered (estimate): 13,000,000 MILLION INNOCENTS
Date of GUN CONTROL Law:1928-1938

we should remember history and learn from it


You can't be comparing America to Uganda, the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany. You need to compare apples to apples. Compare America to other developed nations. That means western Europe, Australia, Japan, and South Korea.
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#15

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:58 AM

I'll gladly continue this discussion at another time. I am off to work now.
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#16 PBR

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

The murder rate in America is 4.8 (all forms of intentional homicide included, gun or not). In Britain, it is 1.2. So your argument that Brits are just killing each other in different ways is not true.

You can't be comparing America to Uganda, the Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany. You need to compare apples to apples. Compare America to other developed nations. That means western Europe, Australia, Japan, and South Korea.


yes and america is how much larger more populated than uk? -- or course the rate gonna be higher when the population is so much higher -- also mexico has just as strong gun laws as uk and look at their murder rate its towers over americas

also you missed the point of that post -- those countries imposed gun control laws banning them and collecting them up then went on to turn on its own people cause the people could not defend themselves -- thats what the 2nd gives the people is the ability to defend themselves against a tyranny government along with self protection -- and if you dont think we need protection from our own government you should read this again

Our government provided training and weapons to al qaeda and other terrorists groups (will give them the benefit of the doubt in maybe they didnt know were terrorist at that time) -- also a fact they gave 1000's and 1000's (over 2000 that is known) of guns to drug cartels and when it came to light they claimed it was a failed botch to catch them -- but yet this is same government that wants to take away weapons from its citizens while they arm the terrorist and cartels -- but yet you see no reason why we might need to stand up to them someday
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:26 AM

just to show how stupid this ban of assault weapons is and the talks of it -- here are two rifles -- what is the functionally difference in them?

this is a mini 14 ranch rifle (established hunting rifle) - not in the ban
Posted Image


here is your typical ar15 -- in the ban list
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there is no difference in them period but looks -- both shoot the same ammo, both can have high cap mags and can shoot just as fast as the other -- the only difference is the look or the ar -- thats like telling someone they cant own a Ferrari cause it looks too fast and dangerous sorry you have to own this pinto cause it doesnt look so fast and fancy

in the end its about money really -- the government cant tax guns / ammo like alcohol and cigs so they are wanting to make us pay 200 fee for every gun we have to register them -- well every gun is registered when you buy it (expect person to person - but it was registered once when purchased new) its not our fault they wiped their ass with the forms and didnt do anything with them

its kind of like the old saying you give an inch they will take a mile -- you give away one right then they will take another -- soon you will have no rights -- just glad i wont live to see that day

also im willing to bet if this was put up for the people to vote no way in hell would a ban happen -- obummer has been the best thing for gun sales in the history -- a local little gun store i know here use to average 30k a week in sales is doing over 50 to 60k a day now -- one small mom and pop gun store -- what you think big ones are doing -- and 75% of the people buying are people that never owned a gun and probably never would have owned one but are flocking to buy one now -- i got friends that dont own a gun asking me to build them an ar15 -- lol -- shit cant find parts anywhere everything is sold out and companies cannot keep up with demand -- i have a feeling the pro-gun out number the anti-gun in major numbers -- like i say though if you never had guns or messed with guns or are from another country then you dont understand the right or what its like to have the right -- i have had guns since a young kid -- i probably got my first gun at 6 yrs old and have around 15 right now which includes 3 ar15's -- and they will never take my guns while im alive period
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

All the info i have on Switzerland says their gun crime rate is so low they dont even keep statistics on it. So i have no idea where you get it is much highter than other Europe countries.

Our country cant even get drugs out of the hands of criminals and we are going to give up our rights to them and trust the government will get Guns away from crinimals? LOL and when they cant we are helpless against them and especially the drug users who break in to get their drug fix. So because the gun ban we become victims at an astronomical rate to Home invasions, car jackings, gangs, robberies, rape, assault, etc. Then from there all types of insurance goes up. Prices go up to cover loss' and insurance, etc. Criminals become fearless.

Americans have a ton of guns. That fact alone keeps most criminals from breaking into someones house at night.

Check this out from the BBC 4 years after the gun ban.

"
The growing trend of car-jacking
Car-jacking is a growing problem, with 90 reported cases in London alone last year.
But it is not just a problem in the capital. The crime has become such a worry in West Yorkshire police have set up a squad to deal with it. "

Later in the article

"
Guns
Police believe car-jackings are a response to advances in vehicle security.
Thieves are avoiding trying to break into locked cars in favour of getting their hands on the ignition keys.
In the most extreme cases, they threaten the driver at gunpoint."



How is that gun ban working for ya?
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#19 Erik

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

lol stupid gun nuts make me laugh, your arguments are so fucking dumb -- your graphs don't even account for population growth, your lack of understanding of basic statistics is fucking laughable.

As for your "guns protect us from the government" argument: you've got more people imprisoned than the soviet union, warrantless wiretapping and indefinite imprisonment. You don't get to lecture the rest of the world about freedom.

P.s. here's a chart for you stupid cbombs, more military/police grade weapons per person = more gun deaths.

Posted Image
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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

just to show how stupid this ban of assault weapons is and the talks of it -- here are two rifles -- what is the functionally difference in them?

this is a mini 14 ranch rifle (established hunting rifle) - not in the ban
Posted Image


here is your typical ar15 -- in the ban list
Posted Image





there is no difference in them period but looks -- both shoot the same ammo, both can have high cap mags and can shoot just as fast as the other -- the only difference is the look or the ar -- thats like telling someone they cant own a Ferrari cause it looks too fast and dangerous sorry you have to own this pinto cause it doesnt look so fast and fancy

in the end its about money really -- the government cant tax guns / ammo like alcohol and cigs so they are wanting to make us pay 200 fee for every gun we have to register them -- well every gun is registered when you buy it (expect person to person - but it was registered once when purchased new) its not our fault they wiped their ass with the forms and didnt do anything with them

its kind of like the old saying you give an inch they will take a mile -- you give away one right then they will take another -- soon you will have no rights -- just glad i wont live to see that day

also im willing to bet if this was put up for the people to vote no way in hell would a ban happen -- obummer has been the best thing for gun sales in the history -- a local little gun store i know here use to average 30k a week in sales is doing over 50 to 60k a day now -- one small mom and pop gun store -- what you think big ones are doing -- and 75% of the people buying are people that never owned a gun and probably never would have owned one but are flocking to buy one now -- i got friends that dont own a gun asking me to build them an ar15 -- lol -- shit cant find parts anywhere everything is sold out and companies cannot keep up with demand -- i have a feeling the pro-gun out number the anti-gun in major numbers -- like i say though if you never had guns or messed with guns or are from another country then you dont understand the right or what its like to have the right -- i have had guns since a young kid -- i probably got my first gun at 6 yrs old and have around 15 right now which includes 3 ar15's -- and they will never take my guns while im alive period




Prices on AR 15s have doubled and trippled. Most are sold out and you cant get them. All Obama has done is cause everyone to ru out and get them that were on the fence before procrastiating. Of course the bad guys have always had them and always will.
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