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MMATycoon

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my last fight when trying ground game http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=800709 -- the numbers just suck elite wrestling, takedowns and gnp only to land 6 out of 26 takedown attempts -- 1 out of 10 gnp strikes -- now given my sliders probably werent the best set cause havent paid much attention to ground game or sliders that much in long time and knowing jlp probably has great stats along with better slider knowledge but still those numbers suck

Takedown Def Sensational(100)-- Submissions Abysmal(61)- Defensive Grap Exceptional(96)- Transitions Exceptional(16)++ Escapes Exceptional(14)--

 

I havent been doing any ground training with him since he started declining a few months ago. As you can see they arent very high at all. Right now, any ground defense stats over sens are a waste and you can get by with exc pretty well as long as the opponent doesnt get a td very early.

Clinching is just as broken as the ground game now. Having one fighter build that is so overpowered now has pretty much sucked all the fun out of the game for me.

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Takedown Def Sensational(100)-- Submissions Abysmal(61)- Defensive Grap Exceptional(96)- Transitions Exceptional(16)++ Escapes Exceptional(14)--

 

I havent been doing any ground training with him since he started declining a few months ago. As you can see they arent very high at all. Right now, any ground defense stats over sens are a waste and you can get by with exc pretty well as long as the opponent doesnt get a td very early.

Clinching is just as broken as the ground game now. Having one fighter build that is so overpowered now has pretty much sucked all the fun out of the game for me.

 

also i had been training takedowns for some time right up to fight time to get the % bonus for it -- didnt help any

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I dont think huge changes are needed, I would like to see GNP land a bit more, I like the idea of a damage slider for GNP. The other way I think escapes are overpowered, I think they should be lowered just a little too. Maybe ref standups a little more. I also like the idea of changing the bottom slider to sub/escape.

 

Overall I think things are pretty good right now, so I wouldn't make huge changes just some small tweaks should be enough.

 

If you are looking at big changes, I would love to have the corner men that was talked about when the PA's first came out.

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I would get rid of instant escapes and the predictions too. That would mean the strikers would have to work for the escapes but it would still be a viable route out of danger instead of a free pass. There would still be a possibility to get an almost instant escape but that would be achieved by risky/daring sliders which could also backfire. Putting escapes under the finish/control in the hierarchy sounds sensible. Reduce the Ground Top slider role in getting sweeps and tie sweeps more into the finish slider.

 

Also the difficulty of a takedown versus striker aggression should be tuned a bit, counter takedowns have been almost dead for a longer while now. I'd also double check whether the escape training speed boosting has been normalized.

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I would get rid of instant escapes... There would still be a possibility to get an almost instant escape but that would be achieved by risky/daring sliders which could also backfire.

Eh... not convinced. Maybe instant escapes need to be toned down but I don't think the answer is to do it by linking it to the ground slider...

 

Put it this way: escapes during the initial takedown scramble and escapes during the actual grappling phase are two completely different things. In other words in order to have a chance at an instant escape you'd have to set your standup slider(s) a lot higher than usual, which invariably means expending more energy on escape attempts during the grappling phase.

 

To my mind it makes a lot more sense to keep them separate: instant escapes can be addressed without the need to link it to an existing slider.

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So I have some great ground guys and just stand up guys with elite in each skills supporting their primary skills. So here are my suggestions

 

1) Escapes are overpowered and almost nulls the entire ground game. I agree with fuse that there should be more of a risk but also believe should be less effective. If you have a fighter with Elite wrestling and is a black belt in BJJ, that fighter should be able to at least keep the other guy on the ground for at least 1 min out of 25. Missed escapes should also happen more often and

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=795327

 

2) GNP - I have a fighter who has elite GNP and Elite Subs. Landing GNP is not near consistent as landing standup strikes when you have elite boxing and punches. Its also near impossible to KO, TKO someone with GNP compared to KO'ing someone standing up. Also, Id like to see head/body and damg/acc sliders for ground.

 

3) Mount to Half guard? So quick? After performing a takedown, it takes almost FOREVER to get to mount. Guard top, half guard/side control, then mount. But the guy on the bottom can transition out of mount into half guard? I get it, I took BJJ and going from mounted to side control is unrealistic, but its really easy to get into half guard. Please make it harder or something.

 

4) Clinch Grappling - While in the clinch, there should be elements of takedowns to variations of ground positions. Dare I say submissions from the clinch also?

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Eh... not convinced. Maybe instant escapes need to be toned down but I don't think the answer is to do it by linking it to the ground slider...

 

Put it this way: escapes during the initial takedown scramble and escapes during the actual grappling phase are two completely different things. In other words in order to have a chance at an instant escape you'd have to set your standup slider(s) a lot higher than usual, which invariably means expending more energy on escape attempts during the grappling phase.

 

To my mind it makes a lot more sense to keep them separate: instant escapes can be addressed without the need to link it to an existing slider.

I agree this is a better dea than getting rid of instant escapes.

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Eh... not convinced. Maybe instant escapes need to be toned down but I don't think the answer is to do it by linking it to the ground slider...

 

Put it this way: escapes during the initial takedown scramble and escapes during the actual grappling phase are two completely different things. In other words in order to have a chance at an instant escape you'd have to set your standup slider(s) a lot higher than usual, which invariably means expending more energy on escape attempts during the grappling phase.

 

To my mind it makes a lot more sense to keep them separate: instant escapes can be addressed without the need to link it to an existing slider.

 

Well, exactly. Like combos, if you set it higher (the get up slider) the chances of hitting it is higher. But failing the attempts may get you in trouble, so don't spam unless you're feeling lucky. You can't spam anything else in this game if you want to be successful so why should escapes be an exception? People just have to learn to use the get up slider like it's meant to be used, I suppose.

 

In my understanding the instant escapes ARE linked to get up slider value anyway just like regular escapes even though you may perceive them as separate entities. That slider is now probably too heavily used and it might not mean the slider has to be even close to half way to get the guaranteed escape try. And if it fails oh well you just have to spend a little time on the ground but probably not long since it will get stood up anyway.

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We need to be really careful about making too many changes at once. I feel like we go through this same thing every single engine change and never seem to learn our lesson. First it was the counter TD era and how over-powered the ground game and CTD was. Then we nerfed regular TD's, counter TD's, submission attempts scoring too valuable on the bottom. Now this engine regular TD's suck, counter TD's suck, submissions don't score shit on the ground for the most part anymore. But every time we make like 10 different changes all designed to do practically the same thing and now here we are trying to do the same thing again.

 

I can almost guarantee you that if we nerf instant escapes, make escapes affected by finish, increase gnp % AND nerf ref stand-ups further we're just going to have an over-powered ground game. Because all of those changes have the same goal and that's to make the ground more effective.

 

If you look at fights between ground fighters, take Hurmio vs. Lemiux for example, that fight isn't killed by ref stand-ups, but that's because it's between two ground fighters. So i'd hedge my bets and say that neither guy was going 80-90 control on the bottom and were instead looking for occasional sweep and submission attempts. If we make escapes under "finish/control" under the heirarchy and make guys actually take risks to get off their back, that's going to have an impact on ref stand-ups. If we increase GNP% that's also going to help decrease the amount of stand-ups. To also nerf ref stand-ups in addition to that IMO is just going to be too much. I think we need to be really careful at once again making 5 or 6 changes all at one time designed to help the ground game. I think maybe GNP% and the escapes issues should be addressed and then let's see what that does to ref stand-ups for 3 months and re-evaluate

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Well, exactly. Like combos, if you set it higher (the get up slider) the chances of hitting it is higher. But failing the attempts may get you in trouble, so don't spam unless you're feeling lucky. You can't spam anything else in this game if you want to be successful so why should escapes be an exception? People just have to learn to use the get up slider like it's meant to be used, I suppose.

 

In my understanding the instant escapes ARE linked to get up slider value anyway just like regular escapes even though you may perceive them as separate entities. That slider is now probably too heavily used and it might not mean the slider has to be even close to half way to get the guaranteed escape try. And if it fails oh well you just have to spend a little time on the ground but probably not long since it will get stood up anyway.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure instant escapes aren't linked to the sliders - and this is according to Duphus, who I'm inclined to believe knows what he's talking about.

 

My point is trying to escape during the initial scramble and during the actual ground phase are two completely different things. Essentially what you are saying is "let's make people expend more energy on normal escapes during grappling because instant escapes are broken" - that doesn't seem like a remotely sensible solution to me. It is entirely possible to tone down instant escapes without forcing people to start completely fucking about with their ground sliders.

 

And let's be clear here: if you are seriously advocating implementing this mechanic that's going to change not only the standup slider but all the other ground sliders further up the hierarchy - it's going to be a complete mindfuck. And more to the point it's not realistic in comparison to RL MMA: trying to escape from bottom positions, top positions and during the initial takedown scramble are three separate things and this is currently reflected in the game mechanics. Again, it's perfectly possible (and far more sensible imo) to simply alter the success rate of instant escapes and address the problem there rather than dramatically altering the way the ground game currently works.

 

And I 100% agree with what shortfuse said above: "we need to be really careful about making too many changes at once" - completely changing the instant escape mechanic so it's now linked to previously unrelated sliders is going to seriously mess with people's existing setups, it just doesn't make sense on multiple levels.

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http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689704

 

 

The most notable change is that after every takedown attempt, there’s now a check to see if the fighter who has been taken down can immediately bounce back to their feet. This was brought in to give value to the “escapes” skill, as part of the overall changes.
The kicker, to help improve the ground game activity, is that you only attempt this escape, if you’re going to try escapes once you are on the ground. The higher your “stand and escape” slider, the more chance you’ll go for / end up with one of these immediate, bounce back up escapes.

 

 

 

Duphus would be incorrect

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http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689704

 

 

The most notable change is that after every takedown attempt, there’s now a check to see if the fighter who has been taken down can immediately bounce back to their feet. This was brought in to give value to the “escapes” skill, as part of the overall changes.

The kicker, to help improve the ground game activity, is that you only attempt this escape, if you’re going to try escapes once you are on the ground. The higher your “stand and escape” slider, the more chance you’ll go for / end up with one of these immediate, bounce back up escapes.

 

 

 

Duphus would be incorrect

Right okay, well maybe there is an argument to be made for separating them then - it makes sense that it's linked to the top slider rather than bottom but still would like to see them separated: surely the assumption is you're always going to be trying for the instant escape during the scramble - so have it unrelated to the existing sliders (i.e. purely based on fighter stats) and tone down the success rate.

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Do escapes end in the clinch ever? Im not too sure but from what I can recall they dont. I think they should

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=794295

 

Kai misses with a leg kick

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif

and Pulkkinen counters with a nice double leg into guard.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/escape2.gif

Kai manages to wriggle out and sneak his way back up to his feet, so the fighters are now clinched up against the cage.

Kai controlling the action here for a moment.

Kai can't find room to land a body shot as Pulkkinen controls the action.

Pulkkinen misses with a hook to the ribs.

Kai stalling in the clinch.

Kai tried to land a shot to the body but connects with Pulkkinen's elbow.

Pulkkinen misses with some punches.

A real battle for position is taking place between these two warriors.

Kai dictating the pace here, as the fighters clinch against the cage.

Pulkkinen throws a punch but it's blocked by Kai.

Kai blocks a body shot from Pulkkinen.

 

 

 

 

Yes they do although I still think that glitch where failed TD's lead to the clinch is still broken. The text says that they end up in clinch but then you'll see someone throw a leg kick on the next move. I mentioned it quite a few times in that same thread I linked in my last post starting here http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689778

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Do escapes end in the clinch ever? Im not too sure but from what I can recall they dont. I think they should

 

Failed takedowns were sometimes supposed to end in the clinch too (unless that is just incorrect flavor text?) but I've never seen it happen. It would be nice if both these could be done at the same time.

 

Edit: Fuse beat me to it

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Firstly, I'm pretty sure instant escapes aren't linked to the sliders - and this is according to Duphus, who I'm inclined to believe knows what he's talking about.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I ever said that, but maybe I did. I don't use escapes so my knowledge is somewhat limited on actual use in the game, but I do follow all the changes when they are made and take note of them. I will say I really don't remember reading that the pop up escape was related to the get up slider, so it's very possible I did say that and was clearly wrong if I did.

 

The reason escapes didn't work before was guys weren't using enough "GET UP" % on the sliders, before the changes where ever made thus the reason guys said escapes don't work well enough.

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I'm not sure I ever said that, but maybe I did. I don't use escapes so my knowledge is somewhat limited on actual use in the game, but I do follow all the changes when they are made and take note of them. I will say I really don't remember reading that the pop up escape was related to the get up slider, so it's very possible I did say that and was clearly wrong if I did.

 

The reason escapes didn't work before was guys weren't using enough "GET UP" % on the sliders, before the changes where ever made thus the reason guys said escapes don't work well enough.

Ah I may have misread it: http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53536&p=738747 - I'd assumed the implication was for TD escapes sliders didn't apply but it seems that's not the case :P

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Firstly, I'm pretty sure instant escapes aren't linked to the sliders - and this is according to Duphus, who I'm inclined to believe knows what he's talking about.

 

Yeah of course man, I'm making this all up...

 

Mike's words:

 

"It looks at the "get up" slider. I think x5 that (or x4, I can't remember for sure), to get a %. So if you do 15% get up from the ground, it would x5 to get 75%. So then we've got a 75% chance of even running the escape move.... that is to say, not a 75% chance of the escape working, just a 75% chance that they even try. So basically, I'm rewarding people who actually try to get up in general ground game from the bottom, with this extra bonus. If you're never going to try and get up from the bottom on the ground, you won't be getting this extra bonus move."

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Yeah of course man, I'm making this all up...

 

Mike's words:

 

"It looks at the "get up" slider. I think x5 that (or x4, I can't remember for sure), to get a %. So if you do 15% get up from the ground, it would x5 to get 75%. So then we've got a 75% chance of even running the escape move.... that is to say, not a 75% chance of the escape working, just a 75% chance that they even try. So basically, I'm rewarding people who actually try to get up in general ground game from the bottom, with this extra bonus. If you're never going to try and get up from the bottom on the ground, you won't be getting this extra bonus move."

Bit late to the conversation mate.

 

Regardless I don't think getting rid of instant escapes is the answer. Again, much simpler to simply alter the existing success rate.

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Ah I may have misread it: http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53536&p=738747 - I'd assumed the implication was for TD escapes sliders didn't apply but it seems that's not the case :P

 

As I said cause I don't use them: So I have either forgotten the TD escape was slider effected or never know it to start with, lol.

 

Either way I was basically wrong, while I never said it was or wasn't slider related, I could see where you would get that from what I said in that post and if someone asked that direct question to me at the time of that post, I'd probably said it wasn't slider related.

 

Remember I'm called Duphus for a reason

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