Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 There seems to be this miss conception that PPV orgs earn some ridiculous amount of money and have an unfair advantage over all other players. I am bringing this up because of recent comments towards Chuck and the closing down of CEC and EMP following suit shortly after. I am also bringing this up because Mike also believes this, because he made running an org + private gym more expensive than running any other company plus a private gym. PPV org profits are significantly overestimated. Sure you earn good money from events, but most of that goes back into sign on fees. Lets say you earn 1 million per event (which is a good estimate, i actually earned a bit less than this on average over the past 5 events), over a 10 month period, you had a total of 40 events, so that is 40 million. If you have a roster of 100 fighters, they will receive 2 renews each (2 contracts of 5 fights) over that period of time. So that is 200 contacts. If the average sign on fee is 200k (my minimum sign on fee is 150k, some earn much more than 200k), that means you spent a total of 40 million on the sign on fees. If you calculate any additional fees such as employees, write ups, posters (that some orgs have), that means you could actually make a loss. I also pay for 2 affiliate orgs every month, so i am pretty sure we are just about breaking even. If it was not for my own fighters, plus some of my buddy managers accepting "below market value" salaries, i am pretty sure GAMMA would be making a loss. YES, i did say we would probably be making a loss. I know for a fact that CEC was struggling with their finances recently as well (we was discussing with Blake about how to structure and improve profits). I expect GAMMA will likely lose money in upcoming months because we had to increase the amount of events due to the larger roster (this means losses via depreciating returns). High end clothing/nutrition companies earn more money than 80-90% of the orgs out there. If you sell off your 2500 products (which most of those companies do), which costs nothing to produce, you earn 750,000 per month. You can often get good nutrition companies with researched products on auction, so you do not even need to invest in the technology. Also a lot of these companies have lucrative deals with orgs and gyms. My merch partner earns over 25k per event on average and i have a low fee for him, so that is another 100k per month. Another thing people are forgetting is that the workload of running such a company is NOWHERE near what it is to run an org. It probably takes a good 2-3 hours per week if you are doing a proper job, to run an org. Most other companies takes less than 30 minutes. If we look at the highest earners in the game's history, you will find very few who earned it due to org profits. Most of them earned their money from laundering fighter / company accounts, selling off assets (including orgs), winning lotteries. I am 3rd of that list but i run an org for 11 years and STILL a large portion from the money i earned was from manager donations / giveaways. The reality is that running an org is hard work and most time has very little financial rewards. UPDATED: This is the all time GAMMA financial breakdown: Affiliate Costs: $ 33,600,000 Staff Wages : $ 62,205,759.95 Signing Bonuses : $ 323,568,140.00 Signing Bonuses (Direct manager transfers): $ 14,500,000 Event Expenses : $ 2,420,619,178.00 Total Costs: $ 2,853,893,077 Event Revenue : $ 2,913,692,281.51 Profit: $ 60,000,000~ Average profit per month over the 11 year period: 454,545 $ 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobloblaw Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I don't have the experience of running a top tier org. I can attest to the fact that running an org is a lot of work though. And yes, for the most part, it is thankless. 150k contracts? That blows my effn mind. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I don't have the experience of running a top tier org. I can attest to the fact that running an org is a lot of work though. And yes, for the most part, it is thankless. 150k contracts? That blows my effn mind. 150k sign on fee (that is for 5 fights), this is pretty much the standard for a top 300-600 ranked fighter. Top ranked fighters (top 100) earn much more than 30k sign on fee per fight, usually it is around 50-60k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobloblaw Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I need to step my game up then to attract some top talent. Even in my ID restricted org. Holy shit those numbers are huge to me. That makes me believe 100% that a ppv org could lose money. Yes my ignorance is showing. I've clearly never had a fighter in a top org. I'm trying to work on that. I might finally have a couple of properly trained prospects that can maybe get their assez whooped in the big time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Good insight into top tier org running Thanks chief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexManiatakos Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I absolutely agree with Mentor on this issue . Ever since i got Synchronicity in my hands , i came into the conclusion that a LOT of managers falsely believe that PPV orgs are filthy rich and make insane amounts of money ..... As a result ,some of them, are absolutely unreasonable when it comes to wage demands and sign on fees for their fighters ... I wont ever forget the case of a top 20 manager who demanded 1,7 million (direct money transfer with a jet) for a 5 fight contract !!!!! Truth be told , running PPV orgs is hard work and it doesnt make as much money as you believe. Mentor explained the reasons for that flawlessly. My merch partner makes 85Kto 95K per week without any effort from their part . No need to mention how much VIP i had to purchase from the VIP exchange in order to raise enough money for my initial investment... I wont tell specific numbers but it was a lot ! My point for posting here is not only to point out the issue of running an org costing a lot on VIP ,but to also raise the awareness of top managers about the situation. I kindly ask from you to lower your demands and understand that Tycoon money doesnt fall from trees. We work hard for our orgs cause we absolutely enjoy it but we also need to make a small profit in order to keep the whole company structure financially sustainable. I dont mean to sound negative or criticise anyone here ,just expressing my opinion. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I wont ever forget the case of a top 20 manager who demanded 1,7 million (direct money transfer with a jet) for a 5 fight contract !!!!! No need to mention how much VIP i had to purchase from the VIP exchange in order to raise enough money for my initial investment... I wont tell specific numbers but it was a lot ! I fell to that trap in the past (sending large amount directly to their accounts). Because if the manager goes inactive, the new manager will demand a new contract (because they wont agree to fight on a 1/1/1). In regards to the raising cash, i also had to spend 90$ (to buy in game cash) when i initially went to PPV level, just to raise enough money to rent the stadiums and compete with the wages. Either way, org owners just got penalized, we have to pay extra to have a private gym because apparently we are filthy rich and can afford to pay extra real money for them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Ehm, let's not forget that PPV orgs, who decided to run on loss, and cover that loss through the VIP exchange, inflated the PPV contracts for the simple purpose of being first. Then the other PPV orgs, in order to be competitive with the aforementioned orgs, followed suit and started offering inflated PPV contracts to fighters as well, cause those fighters were skipping them for the first PPV orgs. Not blaming anyone, but org owners brought this to themselves. I remember PPV orgs being much more profitable 1,5-2 years ago. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I calculated the total profit for GAMMA over the 11 year period and updated the original post. On average we earned around 450,000$ per month, over the 11 year period. I can calculate the real profit now, but i expect it will be around 1 million or less in clear profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Ehm, let's not forget that PPV orgs, who decided to run on loss, and cover that loss through the VIP exchange, inflated the PPV contracts for the simple purpose of being first. Then the other PPV orgs, in order to be competitive with the aforementioned orgs, followed suit and started offering inflated PPV contracts to fighters as well, cause those fighters were skipping them for the first PPV orgs. Not blaming anyone, but org owners brought this to themselves. I remember PPV orgs being much more profitable 1,5-2 years ago. We have not changed our payment structure since 2013. It is basically the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I was running an ID org at 310k, 2 events per week, winning over 100k per event, so that's at least 800k a month. I am pretty sure that I can do same results now If I have the time needed to invest in recruiting, matchmaking, writing etc. I understand your complaint is about VIP price for org+gym being too expensive since PPV orgs aren't winning much? Sure, but you can do an ID org and win more money as I said, you can do an Island org and win 6-7 mil in 6 months. You can as well start paying less, loyal managers who are happy with matchmaking and org management in general will stay in the org, try to offer something extra besides money, cause i am pretty sure most of the experienced managers(the ones who are actually populating the PPV orgs' rosters) are sitting on 10-20-30 mil or more and don't care about money. It is all about managing a business, calculating costs and incomes. With all my respect, the case would be similar if I start running a clothing company, start giving 1-mil sponsorship contracts to everyone and then start complaining that I am penalized because I am losing money from my business. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexManiatakos Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I was running an ID org at 310k, 2 events per week, winning over 100k per event, so that's at least 800k a month. I am pretty sure that I can do same results now If I have the time needed to invest in recruiting, matchmaking, writing etc. I understand your complaint is about VIP price for org+gym being too expensive since PPV orgs aren't winning much? Sure, but you can do an ID org and win more money as I said, you can do an Island org and win 6-7 mil in 6 months. You can as well start paying less, loyal managers who are happy with matchmaking and org management in general will stay in the org, try to offer something extra besides money, cause i am pretty sure most of the experienced managers(the ones who are actually populating the PPV orgs' rosters) are sitting on 10-20-30 mil or more and don't care about money. It is all about managing a business, calculating costs and incomes. With all my respect, the case would be similar if I start running a clothing company, start giving 1-mil sponsorship contracts to everyone and then start complaining that I am penalized because I am losing money from my business. ID orgs make good money due to low fighter contracts ,zero ppv flat fee (they dont have PPV) and cheap arena booking fees . Its a completely different case . I used to work for RFC for a year and the org made 100K to 200 K profit per event after being hyped enough to book the 3k seat arena. Believe me mate, some managers sit on 30 million tycoon dollars in their account and still demand huge contracts. lol . If Org A offers you a reasonable contract for your P4P ranking BUT Org B offers you a truckload of money for the same fighter , who will you choose ? You Jake, will probably choose according to roster depth and loyalties but the majority will follow the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 ID orgs make good money due to low fighter contracts ,zero ppv flat fee (they dont have PPV) and cheap arena booking fees . Its a completely different case . I used to work for RFC for a year and the org made 100K to 200 K profit per event after being hyped enough to book the 3k seat arena. Believe me mate, some managers sit on 30 million tycoon dollars in their account and still demand huge contracts. lol . If Org A offers you a reasonable contract for your P4P ranking BUT Org B offers you a truckload of money for the same fighter , who will you choose ? You Jake, will probably choose according to roster depth and loyalties but the majority will follow the money. And we go back to the root of the problem - some orgs inflating ppv contracts. If all orgs slightly reduce the pay they are offering and start operating on profit, then those managers won't have a truckload of money offered to them and would have to sign for a reasonable amount. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobloblaw Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 My sincere thanks go out to everyone who has signed to SAFO at discount rates. I promise I'm trying to run a good and fun org. The more of your 345k+ studs you sign on with the better match making I can do. I think I've even got a couple of prospects for your champ now Jake. Sorry it's been slow going for you there. Thanks for your patience. Camara can attest that I will give releases if you are unhappy. He has a couple of other hammers now giving it a go. This has been very insightful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shards Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 People should just get off trying to fuck ppv orgs for a few, it'd be ideal to let the market reset and we can readdress things.I think I kept contracts reasonable and my highest contract was 150/100/125 for 4 fight deals at the end, I did still walk away with millions more than I started.I have some idea on how much money can be made and I also know how fast a mistake can swing the pendulum so you start losing that money on events instead. Part of the problem in my opinion is that org owners have a lot of money but at no point did I feel rich because stipping a title can also cost millions, for a large majority of time I felt like I was earning insurance rather than profit.Overall tho, org profits went from about 800-1.2 million per event as a high level id ppv org to about 200-500k after going open id. I was actively trying to pay more during the process but the math for profits didn't change, eventually people also just expect more.Like i said on other topics, a lot of the money you make as an open id org goes to the fighters to keep the org competitive. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 And we go back to the root of the problem - some orgs inflating ppv contracts. If all orgs slightly reduce the pay they are offering and start operating on profit, then those managers won't have a truckload of money offered to them and would have to sign for a reasonable amount. Pretty much this is the case. It is funny but the guy who ran my affiliate org for 5 years earned on average more than what i did over that same period: http://www.mmatycoon.com/managerprofilemanager.php?MgrID=84742 It is kind of funny, but running an ID org earns more than running a mid tier or Elite org. Mid tier can also make pretty good money if they do not try to compete with wages. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegularJohn Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I literally believed "PPV orgs are filthy rich and make insane amounts of money". Will consider all of this next time I negotiate a contract. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barney Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 I already have money. Sign me for profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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