Mike Tyson vs Muhammad Ali

[fbwellman]

The Buster Douglas fight he was in "never never" land too? Cuz he lost that and that was before he went to court and prison

[Philosopher]

As a fighter that is such a lame excuse that he had to have "the demon in him" and the fact that people consider all his losses when he didn't "have it in him" are excusable. Such BS man

But its a fact.

[Timmy]

Boxing.com top 10 heavyweights of all time

 

1. Ali

2. Joe Louis

3. Rocky Marciano (From the city right next to where I was born!)

4. Lennox Lewis

5. Joe Frazier

6. George Foreman

7. Larry Holmes

8. Sonny Liston

9. Jack Johnson

10. Mike Tyson

 

 

Not one of these great fighters could have beat Mike Tyson on Monday June 27, 1988 The night he beat Michael Spinks

 

And how many would have lost to Buster Douglas in their prime as Tyson did?

[Philosopher]

Are you serious when you say it was the best Tyson that fought Buster?

[Tycooner]

The Buster Douglas fight he was in "never never" land too? Cuz he lost that and that was before he went to court and prison

when you think of tyson there are two ver too think about

 

VER # 1- Cus D'Amato/Kevin Rooney era

He had a good team around him, Cus D'Amato Kevin Rooney Jimmy Jacobs Bill Cayton

 

Tyson was 35-0, 31 KOs, and widely considered as the greatest heavyweight champion ever

Tyson would go 15-0 in his first year in 1985 one year later mike

1986 Becomes youngest heavyweight champ in history, taking WBA title, November

1987 Becomes undisputed World Heavyweight Championship, August

1988 Marries Robin Givens, February 7

1988 Death of Jim Jacobs, March

1988 Givens files for divorce, October 7

VER # 2 The Don King era Tyson

No more-Cus D'Amato Kevin Rooney Jimmy Jacobs Bill Cayton

New trainers Jay Bright (longtime Tyson friend) and Aaron Snowell took over in the corner.

The Michael Spinks fight was the last time that Tyson was teamed with Rooney

after spinks he would fight Bruno.

The time between Spinks and Bruno was the longest layoff for Tyson in his career.

He became a one punch headhunter overnight. There were shadows of his body combos, but never full force

1989 Signs up with Don King

1990 Loses heavyweight title to Buster Douglas, February 10

1992 Sentenced to six-year prison term for rape, March

1995 Released from prison, March 25

Mike was never the same fighter in the don king era

[Tycooner]

 

 

 

And how many would have lost to Buster Douglas in their prime as Tyson did?

That was the Don king era tyson that fought Buster Douglas

[clydebankblitz]

It's nothing to do with jail. After Cus died, Tyson was never the same. He got a chip on his shoulder, was pissed off and didn't even seem to be a boxer anymore.

 

I also don't think the Lewis fight is relevant because of the fighter's ages at the time. I dunno if Buster Douglas is relevant either because that's like saying "Haseem Rahman KOed Lewis, Lewis beat Tyson, Rahman could beat Tyson".

 

Tyson and Ali is close. It would come down to Ali's accuracy and Tyson's head movement. If Ali could take the first couple of rounds, I think Tyson would begin to break. Even when Cus was around, Tyson never faced a lot of "opposition" in his career and I think his first taste of being outstyled would have been it for him. I also don't think Tyson would walk Ali down. Ali was brilliant at getting off the ropes (when he didn't want to be on them) and I think that would have been a factor too. This being said, in the first couple of rounds Tyson might have slipped a shot and landed a counter on Ali, something he did to so many people.

 

Another factor is the level of opposition. Tyson faced some tough guys but not the greatest. Ali fought against a higher level of opponents and that experience might have been a factor. I used to be disillusioned into thinking that Tyson fought nobodies, but that's completely not the case. Ruddock, Bruno, Spinks, Tucker, Tubbs, Sledon. Sure, these guys aren't exactly Frazier, Foreman, Norton or Liston.

 

It's really interesting but I think you have to see it both ways.

 

JJ, how do you see Tyson beating a Klitschko? The Klitschkos, when they came into their own, never really over commit on any shots. They lean back, lend a very easy jab and very sporadically a big right. They don't really make mistakes or take chances anymore which is why they have been so dominant. Vitaly has a 9 inch reach advantage and 9 inches in height. Wladimir is 7 inches taller with 10 inches in reach. I don't really see what Tyson does to get around them. Ali didn't keep his hands up too high so I can see Tyson maybe dipping under one of those loose Ali jabs, but neither Klitschko does that. They just hang back and keep out of range for every second. What strategy could you see Tyson taking to beat them?

[Tycooner]

Tyson at his best was great at slipping the jab and then banging the body followed by a uppercut a lot of mikes shit pretty much all of them try to hang back when they fought mike he seeked and destroyed when he was at his best

 

mikes style was made to fight taller fighters i think mike could beat the The Klitschkos pre don king

but The Klitschkos and many other fighters could have beat mike once he got with don king

[Tycooner]

[Tycooner]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this one is great

[clydebankblitz]

They hung back out of fear of him hitting them though not really cause it was their bread and butter.

 

From what I can see on boxingrec, here's his opponent heights.

 

Ricardo Spain - 6'2

Jon Alderson - 6'4

Lorenzo Canaday - 6'2

Donnie Long - 6'2

Eddie Richardson - 6'6

Conroy Nelson - 6'4

Sammy Scaff - 6'5

Mark Young - 6'1

David Jaco - 6'6

Mike Jameson - 6'4

Jesse Ferguson - 6'2

Steve Zouski - 6'0

James Tillis - 6'1

Mitch Green - 6'5

Reggie Gross - 6'3

William Hosea - 6'1

Marvis Frazier - 6'0

Jose Ribalta - 6'5

Alfonzo Ratliff - 6'4

Trevor Berbick - 6'2

James Smith - 6'4

Pinklon Thomas - 6'3

Tony Tucker - 6'5

Tyrell Biggs - 6'5

Larry Holmes - 6'3

Tony Tubbs - 6'3

Michael Spinks - 6'2

Frank Bruno - 6'3

Carl Williams - 6'4

James Douglas - 6'3

Henry Tillman - 6'3

Alex Stewart - 6'3

Donovan Ruddock - 6'3

Peter McNeely - 6'2

Buster Mathis Jr - 6'2

Bruce Seldon - 6'1

Evander Holyfield - 6'2

Frans Botha - 6'2

Orlin Norris - 5'11

Julius Francis - 6'2

Lou Savarese - 6'5

Andrew Golota - 6'4

Brian Nielsen - 6'3

Lennox Lewis - 6'5

Clifford Etienne - 6'2

Danny Williams - 6'3

Kevin McBride - 6'6

---

Wladimir Klitschko - 6'6 (As tall as Tyson's fought)

Vitaly Klitschko - 6'7 (Taller than anyone Tyson's fought).

 

 

 

While I suppose he did beat almost all of the tall guys he fought, he was fighting mainly guys around 6'3 for the majority of his biggest run. At the top level he didn't fight too many guys anywhere near the Klitschkos so I dunno if Tyson's style of beating guys who fight tall is gonna work with them. Plus, EVERYONE the Klitschkos fight is much smaller than them (something you can insult them about) so Tyson would be right into what they do best, only smaller.

[handgrenaide]

If they never would have gave Tyson money and fame. He would have become the greatest of all-time. But he is the scariest.

[detonator]

Like it or not Klitschko brothers would win both of them.

 

http://ucowpa.org/userfiles/klitschko-brothers.jpg

 

 

 

I highly doubt it.

[Timmy]

Are you serious when you say it was the best Tyson that fought Buster?

 

I said "in his prime" actually, not "the best". He was about 25 years old.

Before the Douglas/Tyson fight I didn't hear anyone saying Tyson was beyond his prime.

They were still talking about him being invincible that very night. The bookies (who know what they are talking about) were offering incredible odds to anyone they could find to back Douglas.

After the fight, and ever since, it has been excuses from Tyson fans, and cherry-picking of history.

Tyson's career and record is there in black and white. One Tyson, one career.

He didn't prepare for Douglas and he lost. People who don't prepare for fights don't become "The Greatest".

He was great, one of the greatest, but not THE greatest. I watched his fights from amateur to the end. I thought I could be living in the era of the best heavyweight of all time (Ali was fighting Norton//BerbickSpinks/Holmes by the time I started watching fights as a kid so I knew I could never claim to have seen "The Greatest" at work unless someone emerged to outshine Ali).

Honestly, I would have loved it if it had turned out that way, that Tyson - the fighter of MY generation, a man the same age as me more or less - would be The Greatest, and I would witness it all, but it didn't. Did it? Be honest.

Those GOAT rankings that have Tyson somewhere between 8th and 14th have it right.

[clydebankblitz]

Those GOAT rankings also include guys like Rocky Marciano in third place. The guys who do those rankings are dudes like Burt Sugar who would NEVER have a 2015 fighter in their top 20. Someone like Sugar would say Mayweather didn't beat enough top guys, but would hold the likes of Henry Cooper in highest esteem than Manny Pacquiao or Miguel Cotto.

[Tycooner]

Name one Hw fighter that had the elusiveness,power and speed that mike tyson had when he was 21 ?

 

Hint there is none o

[Timmy]

Name one Hw fighter that had the elusiveness,power and speed that mike tyson had when he was 21 ?

 

Hint there is none o

 

Cherry-picking again. Talk about him when he was winning, fighting journeymen, and forget what happened later.

 

Those GOAT rankings also include guys like Rocky Marciano in third place. The guys who do those rankings are dudes like Burt Sugar who would NEVER have a 2015 fighter in their top 20. Someone like Sugar would say Mayweather didn't beat enough top guys, but would hold the likes of Henry Cooper in highest esteem than Manny Pacquiao or Miguel Cotto.

 

Yes, they are subjective. Rocky is over-rated etc, but I think they have Tyson about right.

[Tycooner]

Emanuel Steward said he doesn't even think Tyson deserves to be fighting for the heavyweight title.

''Everyone is holding onto that image of Mike Tyson from 10 to 12 years ago,'' he said. ''That Mike Tyson is gone.''

Emanuel Steward trainer of Lennox Lewis

[Timmy]

 

Emanuel Steward said he doesn't even think Tyson deserves to be fighting for the heavyweight title.

''Everyone is holding onto that image of Mike Tyson from 10 to 12 years ago,'' he said. ''That Mike Tyson is gone.''

Emanuel Steward trainer of Lennox Lewis

 

 

I looked it up. That was said in 2002, before Lewis/Tyson and 12 years after losing to Douglas. I see your point that Tyson was not at his best by the time he fought Lewis (who is older than tyson btw), but that doesn't explain why he lost to Douglas when he was 25.

I just think Tyson's record isn't as great as some people make out. The only other great fighters of his generation were Holyfield and Lewis and they both mastered him. This is all about comparing Tyson with Ali, and i just don't think Tyson's career was as successful, so I say Ali was the greater fighter.

The exact point of the thread is more complicated, because we are comparing idealised versions of Tyson and Ali in an actual fight with each other. Yes, Tyson was awsome in his first 37 fights but he was fighting people like Bruno and old men like Holmes. No matter how elusive, powerful and quick he seemed at his highest point, he had faults and they were exposed later. His story is one of greatness when the going is good. Ali IMO had much more challenging opposition in his career and his was a tale of winning against the odds. Mostly. Put them together and do you see Iron Mike or frustrated, reckless Mike? That is the question.

[Tycooner]

There is know doubt Ali had the better career Ali will forever be talked about as being the greatest and i guess over all he is !

 

Do i think mike tyson at 21 22 23 years old beats Ali yes i do i think that mike beat any ver of Ali but i also think the mike tyson of the don king era gets beat by any ver of Ali even the one who was two old when he made his come back lol

 

could i be wrong about this YES

 

mike tyson will forever be remembered for his failure and the the incredible fighter he was every one says he beat nobodys

 

He beat 3 world champions before he was even 22 years old he did not care who the champion was he wanted the belts

[fbwellman]

 

I said "in his prime" actually, not "the best". He was about 25 years old.

Before the Douglas/Tyson fight I didn't hear anyone saying Tyson was beyond his prime.

They were still talking about him being invincible that very night. The bookies (who know what they are talking about) were offering incredible odds to anyone they could find to back Douglas.

After the fight, and ever since, it has been excuses from Tyson fans, and cherry-picking of history.

Tyson's career and record is there in black and white. One Tyson, one career.

He didn't prepare for Douglas and he lost. People who don't prepare for fights don't become "The Greatest".

He was great, one of the greatest, but not THE greatest. I watched his fights from amateur to the end. I thought I could be living in the era of the best heavyweight of all time (Ali was fighting Norton//BerbickSpinks/Holmes by the time I started watching fights as a kid so I knew I could never claim to have seen "The Greatest" at work unless someone emerged to outshine Ali).

Honestly, I would have loved it if it had turned out that way, that Tyson - the fighter of MY generation, a man the same age as me more or less - would be The Greatest, and I would witness it all, but it didn't. Did it? Be honest.

Those GOAT rankings that have Tyson somewhere between 8th and 14th have it right.

Hit the nail on the head

[clydebankblitz]

People who don't prepare for fighters can't be "the greatest".

 

Well depending on your stance on steroids, the greatest MMA fighter of all time didn't fully prepare for anyone. In fact he got knocked out because he was bored of fighting and had just been messing around with everyone for a while.

[Tycooner]

"doesn't explain why he lost to Douglas when he was 25."

 

ok i thought i did explain

 

her it is some of it in mike's own words

 

Tyson talks about his part in what many sport writers consider the biggest upset in sports history.

On January 8, 1990, I got aboard a plane to fly to Tokyo. Kicking and screaming. I didn’t want to fight; all I was interested in then was partying and women. By the time we left, I had put on 30 pounds. Don King was so worried about my weight that he offered me a bonus if I would make my usual weight when we fought in a month.

 

I didn’t consider Buster Douglas much of a challenge. I didn’t even bother watching any of his fights on video. I had easily beaten everybody who had knocked him out. I felt like my heroes Mickey Walker and Harry Greb. I read that Greb was so arrogant he’d tell his opponents that he hadn’t trained because “you are not worth me sweating for.” So I followed his lead. I didn’t train at all for the fight. My trainer, Anthony Pitts, would get up early in the morning and run with my sparring partner, Greg Page. But I didn’t feel like it. Anthony would tell me that he’d see Buster out there, digging in with his army boots on, snotsicles hanging off his nose, getting in his run.

I couldn’t eat since I was overweight and I wanted to lose the weight and win the bonus from Don, so I drank soup that was supposed to burn off fat. And then I had the cleaning ladies for the main course. It was ironic because you go to Japan and the women seem so shy and introverted but as soon as they’re behind closed doors, ba-boom, it was on. People would ask me if I learned any sexual tips from the Japanese women, but I didn’t have time to learn. This was no sex education course; this was a guy trying to get his rocks off.

I didn’t even have to pay the maids. But I did tip them heavily because I had a lot of that Monopoly-looking money they had over there. They must have been appreciative because they’d come back and sometimes bring friends.

“My friend would like to meet you, Mr. Tyson, sir. She would like to accompany us, sir.”

Besides having sex with the maids, I was seeing this young Japanese girl who I had had sex with the last time I was in Japan. My wife would go out shopping and I would go downstairs to the back of the hotel where this young girl had a room. She was only seventeen then and her father was very wealthy.

I had her do the same thing this time. There were too many people on my floor and I didn’t want Don or Rory or John or Anthony to know my business. They might have scared her; she was very shy around people. In the two years since I had seen her, she had matured a great deal.

So that was my training for Douglas. Every once in a while, I did show up to work out and spar. I was sparring with Greg Page ten days before the fight and I walked right into a right hook and went down.

A few days later, Don opened up one of my sparring sessions to the public for $60 a head. I never saw any of that money, of course. We were supposed to spar for two rounds but I looked so bad that we stopped it after one and closed the session. Don was pissed off. He wanted to make a buck. He had no idea I was so out of shape. Don knew nothing about fighting. He couldn’t tell the difference between a guy in shape or out of shape. He didn’t even know how to tie a boxing glove.

The day before the fight I weighed in at 220½ pounds, so I got my bonus. The day before the fight I also had two maids at the same time. And then two more girls, one at a time, the night before the fight.

I wasn’t following the story but apparently Douglas had a lot of motivation to do well in this fight. In July of 1989, he had been born-again. And then his wife left him, his baby momma got a terminal disease and early in January, while he was in camp his mother died. I didn’t know any of that and I didn’t care. HBO was making a big deal about Douglas fighting for his mother but my arrogance at the time was such that I would have said that he was going to join her that night.

We fought at nine a.m. because of the time difference back in the United States. Half of the arena’s 63,000 seats were empty. Don was a lousy promoter. As soon as I got with him, everything just sunk. He was a dark cloud.

It wasn’t the usual Tyson going into the ring. It was obvious to anyone who was watching that I really didn’t want to be there. The fight started and I fought horribly. I was punching as hard as shit because I knew if I caught him right he wasn’t going to get up, I didn’t care how big he was. But I was hardly throwing. It was the least amount of punches I’d ever thrown in a fight. He used his jab and his reach to throw me off my game and then when I tried to throw body shots, he just held me. He fought very well that night. But I was an easy target for him. I wasn’t moving my head at all.

He wasn’t intimidated by me. In fact, he was the one punching after the bell and on breaks. He was fighting dirty but that’s just part of boxing, everyone did that. After the third round, I went back to my corner and it was obvious that my cornermen, Aaron and Jay, were in over their heads.

“You’re not closing the gap,” Aaron said. “You’ve got to get inside, you’re flat-footed in there.”

No fucking shit. “Why don’t you try to get inside?” The guy had a twelve-inch reach advantage on me.

“Get back to what you know,” Jay said. “Do it. Let it go.”

Easy to say when you’re not getting punched. I kept staring at the floor.

Douglas rocked me in the fourth and the fifth. During the fifth round, my eye began to swell, but when I went back to the corner, they didn’t even have the End-Swell to keep my eye open. I couldn’t believe it when they filled what looked like an extra-large condom with ice water and held it to my eye.

I was exhausted by the sixth round. My left eye was totally shut. But Buster looked tired too, especially when the seventh round began. But I couldn’t get to him. In the eighth he wobbled me and had me against the ropes in the last 20 seconds. I was looking for one punch by then. I was still rocked by his punches, I couldn’t focus, but I saw an opening. For the whole fight he had eluded me whenever I saw openings and I couldn’t bridge the gap, but by then he was tired too and he couldn’t move. So I threw my trademark right uppercut and down he went.

Then I got screwed. The timekeeper was Japanese and the referee was Mexican and they spoke different languages and couldn’t coordinate the count. When the ref was saying “five,” Douglas had actually been on the canvas for eight seconds. So he got a long count. That’s just part of boxing but I think I was really screwed. Usually, I knew I was going to win because the guys I fought were fighting me and the officials too, basically. Don always paid off the officials. That’s what he told me. Maybe he forgot to pay off the ref that night.

But I don’t want to take anything away from Buster. He had so much courage and guts that night. I had hit him with an awesome shot. Anybody else’s head would have been sent to the space shuttle. I was so spent that I couldn’t follow up on the knockdown the next round. He came back strong. When the tenth began, I hit him with a straight right to the jaw but then he unleashed a barrage of punches at my head, starting with a right uppercut. I was so numb that I didn’t even feel the punches, but I could hear them. My equilibrium was shot. Then I went down.

When I hit the canvas, my mouthpiece came out and as the ref was counting, I was trying to stumble to my feet and grab the mouthpiece at the same time. I was operating on pure instinct. I was totally out of it. The ref hugged me after he counted to ten. I walked back to my corner totally dazed. I was chewing on my mouthpiece but I didn’t even know what it was.

“What happened?” I asked my corner.

“The ref counted you out, champ,” Aaron said.

I didn’t do the post-fight interview with HBO, my head was still ringing. I must have had at least one concussion.

Within minutes Don had organized a meeting with the WBC and WBA officials. Then he called his own press conference.

“The first knockout obliterated the second knockout,” he ranted. Jose Sulaiman, the president of the WBC, suspended recognition of anyone as champion because the ref had failed to take the count from the timekeeper. The referee admitted that he had made a mistake. Sulaiman immediately called for a rematch. By then, I was conscious enough to join the press conference. I was wearing sunglasses to hide my mangled eye and holding a white compress to my swollen face.

“You guys know me for years, I never gripe or bitch. I knocked him out before he had me knocked out. I want to be champ of the world. That’s what all young boys want,” I said.

I went back to my hotel room. There was no maid there. It was weird not being the heavyweight champion of the world any longer. But in my mind it was a fluke. I knew that God didn’t pick on any small animals, that lightning only struck the biggest animals, that those are the only ones that vex God. Minor animals don’t get God upset. God has to keep the big animals in check so they won’t get lofty on their thrones. I just lay on my bed and thought that I had become so big that God was jealous of me.

Undisputed Truth by Mike Tyson

[cmattos]

tyson was a punching machine but if the fight go for distance, his power and speed decreases

ali was well know for grow up during later rounds, so i pick ali

[fbwellman]

Just look at how easily people could get in Tyson's head. You think Ali wouldn't destroy him mentally in pre-fight talk and with his confidence and swagger in the ring? And then on top of it his reflexes/speed in his prime like no other h.w? Tyson would try to just punch him out so early and Ali would just dodge until Tyson got tired then he'd be picked apart.