Warwynd Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 Dont mean to derail this thread, but it got me thinking about the last time we could re-destribute our points, which seems like 4-5 years ago--what was that one about, I cant recall what was added--transitions? Transitions and Escapes were added at the same time and it really fucked up a lot of builds at the time... It all but ruined some of my fighters. I lived, but it sucked. I almost rage quit, but I used my discipline to calm myself and stayed... for a while. that stuff was right before I ended up leaving for entirely unrelated reasons. Agree. I dont believe we need more options for fighters. More status stuff to spend cash (better training, equipments, etc for higher amounts) on would be cool. Although we also have a ton of improvement threads so jumping into that discussion in here is a bit pointless THIS!!! This is way more important then having us spread our already to few points any thinner. Plus, all the fighters that exist currently that might be in or near decline would be severely hurt by this. Of course as Mike said it's happening and nothing is going to change that, so get ready for the trigger train and the procession of crying whiners who rage quit over this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello301 Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 This sounds like it will just leave more room for a rock paper scissors situation, where one fighter can only choose to defend takedowns either form the clinch or standing. Its already challenging defending takedowns when you can spam 25 of them with little punishment it seems. Granted I"m still relatively new and may just be doing sliders incorrectly : S 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 This sounds like it will just leave more room for a rock paper scissors situation, where one fighter can only choose to defend takedowns either form the clinch or standing. Its already challenging defending takedowns when you can spam 25 of them with little punishment it seems. Granted I"m still relatively new and may just be doing sliders incorrectly : S No... Takedown spam has become all the rage again... it is really annoying. You have to have REALLY high defenses to prevent TD Spam and even then it's doubtful that you can stop the guy that spams 50+ takedown attempts in a round to get you to the ground. Time was (when I did not know any better) that if you did nothing but spam TD attempts that you would get your ass kicked. Now, it seems, that you can win by just doing TD attempts and then utilizing superior ground skills. Why bother having strikers at all anymore? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylib Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 No... Takedown spam has become all the rage again... it is really annoying. You have to have REALLY high defenses to prevent TD Spam and even then it's doubtful that you can stop the guy that spams 50+ takedown attempts in a round to get you to the ground. Time was (when I did not know any better) that if you did nothing but spam TD attempts that you would get your ass kicked. Now, it seems, that you can win by just doing TD attempts and then utilizing superior ground skills. Why bother having strikers at all anymore? Damn, I guess I've been living under a rock; I thought missing few a round would sap your energy and sway the momentum against you. I was under the impression that people don't spam TDs, but it appears that that might be the case... Out of curiosity--do you have any examples of strikers with good wrestling and TDD losing via spam TDs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseppe Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 No... Takedown spam has become all the rage again... it is really annoying. You have to have REALLY high defenses to prevent TD Spam and even then it's doubtful that you can stop the guy that spams 50+ takedown attempts in a round to get you to the ground. Time was (when I did not know any better) that if you did nothing but spam TD attempts that you would get your ass kicked. Now, it seems, that you can win by just doing TD attempts and then utilizing superior ground skills. Why bother having strikers at all anymore? If your a striker and get taken down then its all about making sure the fight gets stood back up asap & thats where the ground sliders come into play for you. Ok you might get taken down again & again but eventually you should have the edge the longer the fight goes on & more than not you get a stoppage. Def Grappling is your friend 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revheat Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 So High BJJ, spam take down and submit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenlow73 Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Mike's reasoning for the changes were that for far too long Strikers have had an advantage, knows it's the grapplers' turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseppe Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 So High BJJ, spam take down and submit? At lower levels id say yes but i just dont think the strategy works too well against better opponents who have a decent defensive ground game you end up like a fish out of water lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I don't understand why anyone could complain about this? Surely breaking up any meta is a good thing? And plus isn't that the whole point of the game? To build and adapt your fighter to the current meta using the best training methods you can and then applying them in the actual fight with good slider knowledge and a healthy does of luck? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylib Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just another chapter; roll with it. Nothing is constant, but change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenlow73 Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just another chapter; roll with it. Nothing is constant, but change. and Humors trolling, that's pretty much constant too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1rstSaint Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 and Humors trolling, that's pretty much constant too. As well as getting baned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 If this change gets introduced, combined with the recent boost of takedowns' success, fighters would be just jumping up and down as I said in the chat too. I am all in for changes and looking for balance between strikers and grapplers but this is totally not the way - negating the op escapes with op takedowns.. You will be able to get the fight to the ground easy, but still impossible to keep it there. Most of the fights will be just a lot of takedowns, followed by the same amount of instant escapes. I doubt u guys would find it fun to read such fights. Also, adding 50 types of takedown defenses wouldn't solve shit, one could just ignore training those and focus on elite++ escapes. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Guys don't worry, standup still prevails so just train normal TD defence for the standup. A clinch TD artist is still going to lose even if he does get a clinch now and then. But standup Tds will prevail mostly all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Guys don't worry, standup still prevails so just train normal TD defence for the standup. A clinch TD artist is still going to lose even if he does get a clinch now and then. But standup Tds will prevail mostly all the same. Dude, there was a fight recently, where a fighter with woeful takedowns scored 1/1 td vs a fighter with elite+ takedown defense and generally TD success' got seriously increased. Getting the fight to the ground was never a problem, even before the changes. The real problems are actually keeping the fight on the ground(instant escapes should be seriously nerfed) and doing something on the ground. Top position isn't as dominant as it should be, also there are way too much reversals compared to reality and GNP basically does nothing. I would really like those issues to be addressed first instead of messing up the fight engine even more. Really, what's the point of adding more and more options and opportunities to bring the fight to the ground, if we can't keep it there or do anything at all? Won't go deeper and explain how random are ground sliders, where you could set your fighter to do 0% subs, but he still gonna be attempting counter subs, cause you have absolutely no control of counter actions' distribution. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Dude, there was a fight recently, where a fighter with woeful takedowns scored 1/1 td vs a fighter with elite+ takedown defense and generally TD success' got seriously increased. Getting the fight to the ground was never a problem, even before the changes. The real problems are actually keeping the fight on the ground(instant escapes should be seriously nerfed) and doing something on the ground. Top position isn't as dominant as it should be, also there are way too much reversals compared to reality and GNP basically does nothing. I would really like those issues to be addressed first instead of messing up the fight engine even more. Really, what's the point of adding more and more options and opportunities to bring the fight to the ground, if we can't keep it there or do anything at all? Won't go deeper and explain how random are ground sliders, where you could set your fighter to do 0% subs, but he still gonna be attempting counter subs, cause you have absolutely no control of counter actions' distribution. I was just being sarcastic really and I agree with everything you are saying but burnt out poppa Mike has decided and apparently "the people have spoken" and this is "what they want" even though noone ever put any of their incoherent drunken ramblings together while complaining loosely about what is wrong with the game... And this is what happens when your user base is a lot of incoherent drunkards that don't even know what they are talking about let alone what they want, nevermind what is best for the game and what is fair and balanced and resembles real life more (which is ideally what I'd love to have for the game, and essentially you nailed in this one post!) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I tend to side with Kendrick on this. just about all the many losses I have suffered so far since my return (and there are many) are the result of guys with inferior wrestling spammig TD's until; they land one and then I get stuck on the ground and lose because I can't escape. Or in some instances I get TKOd. t's annoying as Hell. Throwing 25-50 takedowns in a fight that only goes two rounds is ridiculous and unrealistic. When I started playing I didn't know better and basically spammed TDs. I lost. A lot. Until A manager (Peel Stee, now known as Marcus Crassus) told me that I was fucking up. He taught me better slider techniques and who to stuff takedowns etc. Then the engine got changed TD spamming got much easier. By that point nearly all my fighters were Sprawl n Brawl types and suddenly I was losing a lot of fights again. Now here I am four years later and TD Spam is all the rage again. Clinch Rape is supposedly a big deal again, but I haven't seen much of that. TD Spam may not be as big a problem in the higher tiers of this game (Although Ovo suggests that it is, in fact still a problem at that level), but at the lower levels when people don't have fighters that have good TD Defense, Def Grap, Clinch, Transitions, and Escapes. And you have to have ALL of that to stop TD Spam. Then you find yourself looking at a lot of losses to Grapplers. Usually by way of decision in a long and boring fight. Or watching your faighter get punished on the ground before finally catching a TKO. Now, admittedly, I am no expert on this matter, and I don't have stellar TD Defense and all of the above, but I have had guys with Abysmal Wrestling take down my Proficient wrestler with Superb TD Defense and just destroy him. These numbers sound like garbage to some of you but it doesn't seem right that an Abysmal Wrestler gets the upper hand on a Proficient wrestler with the ease that they are doing it. I mean the guy could have had Wonderful Takedowns for all I know, but again... Abysmal Wrestling? Point is it should not be anybodies "turn" to dominate the game. It should be more about balancing it out so that it looks more like a real fight, not Clinch, pull guard, Escape and stand up, Takedown, Reversal, Standup, Takedown... etc... it's crap and it needs addressed. Adding more skills to spread out even thinner just pushes this game more and more towards a grappling only game... I think the TD defense, Def Grap, Transitions, and Escapes are more than enough grappling skills as is, but there are actually more then that. There is GNP, Clinchwork, and Takedowns. Kendrick's statement about counter subs versus counter strikes... that is something that should be added. A slider for the ground just like the one for standup, Hell yes. But adding more skills... especially skills that make it even harder to be a striker... All bad. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 There are no counter strikes on the ground btw, just counter subs and transitions. As you can see from this graph, counter goes exactly nowhere: http://www.mmatycoon.info/images/a/a7/Ground_hierarchy.gif So it looks like you have absolutely no slider control of the counter actions. I have had many cases when a fighter of mine with useless subs was doing just subs like a retard when my plan was to be attempting counter-transitions. Setting it to 100% advance position does nothing for counters as well, because as you can see it is just for the aggressive action attempts on the ground. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 There are no counter strikes on the ground btw, just counter subs and transitions. As you can see from this graph, counter goes exactly nowhere: http://www.mmatycoon.info/images/a/a7/Ground_hierarchy.gif So it looks like you have absolutely no slider control of the counter actions. I have had many cases when a fighter of mine with useless subs was doing just subs like a retard when my plan was to be attempting counter-transitions. Setting it to 100% advance position does nothing for counters as well, because as you can see it is just for the aggressive action attempts on the ground. Yup... I knew that actually, but was typing that in a hurry... LOL. Point was I agree with everything you have said on the matter thus far. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLarry Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 Point is it should not be anybodies "turn" to dominate the game. It should be more about balancing it out so that it looks more like a real fight, not Clinch, pull guard, Escape and stand up, Takedown, Reversal, Standup, Takedown... etc... it's crap and it needs addressed. Adding more skills to spread out even thinner just pushes this game more and more towards a grappling only game... I think the TD defense, Def Grap, Transitions, and Escapes are more than enough grappling skills as is, but there are actually more then that. There is GNP, Clinchwork, and Takedowns. Totally agree, I was wondering why on earth should be someone else' "turn" at all, as if Grapplers were imprisoned for eternity like in an epic superhero movie, now it s their "turn" to rule lol I think there s whole lot of other improvements that can be done in many areas (there is an actual list) or skill adjustments (as stated in this thread) to make the game more interesting (if that s the purpose at all), I just don't see how adding TDD in clinch and spreading the points even thinner as it is now and overpowering one particular build or style will benefit the game. By the way, is Clinch TDD really that much different from Standup TDD that we need 2 separate skills for them? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzekelRAGE Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I agree that strikers have had an advantage for too long in regards to the grapplers vs strikers argument. If the two skills added even things out more for grapplers vs strikers, shouldnt really be a problem. Especially if he will let ppl redistribute points. The two skills may help mike with balancing things out more as well. Especially if the skill cap isnt raised and ground guys wont be too dependant on the new skills to be successful. That should about even the skills needed to be trained for both types. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I agree that strikers have had an advantage for too long in regards to the grapplers vs strikers argument. If the two skills added even things out more for grapplers vs strikers, shouldnt really be a problem. Especially if he will let ppl redistribute points. The two skills may help mike with balancing things out more as well. Especially if the skill cap isnt raised and ground guys wont be too dependant on the new skills to be successful. That should about even the skills needed to be trained for both types. I haven't seen someone disagreeing that it is needed to balance strikers and grapplers. The planned changes don't look like they will bring a more balanced and more realistic engine though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjornmma1 Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 So Mike created a forum discussion group to discuss possible changes, only to ignore their suggestions for months and then come up with his own idea, with the reasoning that strikers used to have an advantage,so grapplers should have a run now..???! ( = long grammatically incorrect sentence, sorry) Well that is a nice big fuck you from Mike to his forum discussion group right there. I vote Ovoxo for president, since at least his reasoning about possible changes makes a hell of a lot of more sense. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 So Mike is saying that grapplers deserve a run now since strikers have been dominating. Translation: "The whiney bitches that have been complaining about grapplers sucking in the game (and refuse to ever make a striker or learn how to use ground sliders, also struggle to get a win in any situation) will now get a chance at dominating the game." Watch these shitbag managers STILL not be able to squeak out a win even with the new updates! The saddest thing is that those of us with logic and reason who oppose this rediculous, unbalancing update actually outnumber the shitbags who have been complaining for years about the same thing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump2020 Posted February 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 whats the point of The Group if they are not doing anything that has to do with the game changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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