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Perceived randomness


MMATycoon

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I don't think perfect sliders ever existed or will exist and they shouldn't. Good sliders yes, but perfect? NO! I think it's very good actually at the moment and that it is just a few persons that lost a few fights and that they aren't used to that and that they want to blame the game engine now. (shit, that was a long sentence and most likely terrible grammar as a consequence :P )

there was certain times where certain sliders were just about perfect meaning if you went such a way you would win 90% of the time -- but those issues slowly got weeded out like the counter days when people were 100% counter -- then it went to the more agg or the higher active fighter won most of the time -- it is a balancing act to keep the certain things changing, which is sort of what i meant on needing randomness to break up the alway going higher agg or high counter -- but the game does always seem to move in era's -- same as leg kick era, counter takedown era, bodyshot era and so on

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I LOST AND I AM BLAMING THE FIGHT ENGINE!

 

 

In all honesty i don't see the engine any more or less random than any engine that has been used in the game. If anything i'd say this is one of the more balanced engines as far as striking goes in a long time. The body gassing issue is not really an issue anymore as fighters can fight through the "gassed" point and survive and win. I like the current game engine and i like the way escapes are now working despite the fact i never planned for it because i still didn't think they would work (jokes on me this time).

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After newest update we got "instant escapes" wich are really lucky depent.. Instead of those normal escapes should have been made more effective.

 

Luck has been always really huge factor and its fine, but i still think that there isnt needed more luck depending things in the game.

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Couldn't agree more with you Dinooo. I'm not a vet manager like you, but since I joined, this is the best the game engine has ever felt. I was amazed with how balanced the escapes work also. I was expecting them to be either not working or too powerful, but none of that is the case. The engine is working like a Swiss watch; smooth and enjoyable. Big thumbs up to Mike for such a brilliant job!

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This is RNG MMA Simulator.

 

 

RANDOM Number Generator

 

 

the results reflect random numbers being generated with a bunch of percentages, fractions, hidden mathmatics impacting the % outcome.

 

 

Predict sliders was an awful implementation to mmatycoon imo. evidence that the ground game is broken by only having predict sliders for stand up.

 

 

Takedowns and the ground game are only highly effective at the lower levels it seems. At the higher levels they can be damn near useless.

 

 

escapes are cool. work reasonably good imo. even though I don't have a fighter that has them, watching it work for opponents or alliance members seems realistic.

 

 

 

 

personally I think the engine is pretty weak atm ; if the scoring system is broken, the engine is broken - and I've provided proof that the scoring system is broken. so what's that say about the engine? dysfunctional. incomplete. flawed. whatever word you wanna use, it needs improved and fixed asap.

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personally I think the engine is pretty weak atm ; if the scoring system is broken, the engine is broken - and I've provided proof that the scoring system is broken. so what's that say about the engine? dysfunctional. incomplete. flawed. whatever word you wanna use, it needs improved and fixed asap.

 

Outside of the TWGC thing which part of the scoring is broken? As far as i have seen the scoring is fine outside of the TWGC. The ground game has never been the greatest to be fair however after waiting years now and the engine being in what i think is a decent state, i would like to see Mikes attention turn to fixing the orgs and the constant 1003 events which have been ongoing now for two years.

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Without going through a fuck ton of fights, I'll take the lazy way out and post the most-recent broken ground game scoring I've seen. Doesn't matter that it's my fighter on the shit end of the scoring, look at it from a 3rd person perspective. Even an incompetent judge would of scored this round at least semi-correctly. The commentator didn't even know who won the round, that's an obvious flag the ground game scoring is flawed big time.

 

 

 

The bell rings for round one and we are underway!

 

Loosa swings for the body but McKane moves out of range.
Loosa throws a looping overhand right but McKane ducks down to avoid it.
McKane uses decent footwork to sidestep a right hand from Loosa.
An attempted straight right counter from McKane misses the target.
McKane swings for the body but Loosa moves out of range.
A looping hook to the body misses from McKane. Loosa does a little dance to reset his feet.
McKane misses with a shot to the body
and Loosa counters with a crisp hook to the side of the head.
Loosa misses with a wild body shot.
McKane wings a very wild body shot but it does the job and lands to the midsection.
McKane drops his hands and takes a jab to the jaw for his troubles.
McKane scores with a sloppy right hand. Loosa should have avoided that one.
Loosa tries to land with a swinging hook to the body but McKane was well out of range. Poor timing from Loosa.
Loosa throws a hook to the body but it doesn't connect.
A head kick from McKane lands but Loosa takes it in his stride.
McKane closes this distance looking for a takedown but Loosa circles away.
Wooooo! Give it up for these two warriors! They are putting on a show!
Loosa dips down and scores with a jab to the body.
McKane just misses with a punch to the body.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/1.gif
That's one minute gone in the round.
Loosa throws a body punch but McKane moves out of range.
McKane throws a big shot that misses.
Loosa swings away with a counter right hand but no contact made.
Loosa connects with a solid leg kick.
Loosa misses with a body shot.
McKane looks to have improved his striking defense since last time we saw him fight.
McKane connects with a body shot that sends Loosa's belly button to the back.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/clinch2.gif
Loosa clinches up against the cage.
McKane tries to pull guard but Loosa forces him back to his feet, against the cage.
McKane lands an uppercut.
Loosa misses with a short punch on the inside.
Loosa working aggressively here.
Loosa tries to work over McKane's body with a swooping hook but it only glances the target.
Nice body punch from McKane - that landed with a thud.
Loosa misses with a short punch on the inside.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif
McKane tightens his grip and picks Loosa up, before dumping him to the ground. Loosa manages to land in guard.
McKane is standing up over Loosa. Loosa looks to escape but McKane dives into side control.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/2.gif
That's two minutes gone in the round.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/reversalblue.gif
The ref warns both fighters not to hold the cage as they work up against the meshing.
Wooooo! Give it up for these two warriors! They are putting on a show!
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane wants to work for a kimura but he's foiled early by Loosa, who protects the arm well.
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane is looking to finish here, going for an Americana. Loosa knows the correct defense though, so he's OK.
Loosa is trying to work for a sweep but McKane has mounted him!
Loosa told us pre-fight that he has been working on his escapes in training. Let's see if he can call on some of his new skills to get back to his feet.
McKane content just to control the position here.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/3.gif
That's three minutes gone in the round.
Loosa keeping his composure momentarily, calmly looking to get back to half guard.
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane moves into side control, trying to work for a kimura. That looks painful! Will he finish!!?? No, Loosa has worked his arm free - good work by Loosa!
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane is looking for a kimura. He might have it! No, Loosa has escaped the position, nice work there.
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane is looking to finish here, going for an Americana. Loosa knows the correct defense though, so he's OK.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/4.gif
That's four minutes gone in the round.
The crowd are starting to boo a lack of action.
SUB ATTEMPT
McKane working hard here to secure a kimura but he's not really in the right position for it.
McKane trying to control the position but Loosa is working away.
Loosa prevents McKane from improving position.
And that’s the end of the round – the fighters go back to their corners.

That was a close round but I would say that Ozzy McKane will probably get the nod.
Well, the break between rounds is over. Let's get back to the scrappin

 

 

 

 

 

 

^^^^^ Ground scoring is broken. That round was as one-sided as it gets for a ground fighter without GNP / knockdowns / he's rocked. For 3 minutes Ozzy was on top, side control, mount, highly aggressive and going for subs. Do you really need more evidence that scoring on the ground is broken? Not just a case of bad luck or bad RNG, this was simply broken point scoring for the ground game. and I've seen hundreds of fights with similar results and scoring.

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Takedowns unstoppable now?

 

My standup fighters aren't having much problems keeping the action standing and stuffing takedowns, and i haven't even drastically changed my strategies since the fight system update.

 

But my ground fighters on the other hand seem to have become worse, in the sense that they get takedowns with less effort but don't really do much on the ground after that now. Waiting for them to get more fights so i can test some different sliders before i pass my full judgement on it though.

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I agree takedowns are fine, if anything they are a little weak. Look at my fighter Bryer, I didnt want to post this but he has useless takedown d and the fight before last stopped all 4 takedowns that were tried against him, my fighter Aengus was taken down 5 times out of 11 tries in his last 2 fights, and again has useless takedown D. Neither have very good physicals and I am sure had lower wrestling than the person they were fighting. I only used counter and set the predict sliders and stuffed more takedowns then were landed. In my opinion they should have killed my guys.

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thats it this randomness cost me a fight tonight -- it has to go

 

simulators are going to be random, completely fine with that. just want to see the scoring fixed. 6 years later the ground game scoring shouldn't be that off. I think it would dishearten new users immensely especially with the slowest game speed of any game, ever.

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I'm with Karter in this. Maybe it's not about randomness, but the ground game is strange and scoring gets strange as a consequence (or vice versa?).

 

The impression I have from recent fights is that one hardly gets the fight to stay on the ground unless they're spamming for subs. The consequence is that building a ground fighter doesn't make much sense if you want to reach out higher levels.

 

Randy Couture would disapprove.

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simulators are going to be random, completely fine with that. just want to see the scoring fixed. 6 years later the ground game scoring shouldn't be that off. I think it would dishearten new users immensely especially with the slowest game speed of any game, ever.

your not understanding that the randomness of the stand up cost me the fight and the randomness of missing all my punches but landing my kicks cost me the fight http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=760134 -- i got totally randomized in that fight -- i have a huge one level advantage in boxing but yet didn't land a punch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

of course i agree with you just stating i still got randomized -- lol

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Engine seems good to me at the moment. I do agree with ground scoring I have been on the good and bad end of awful ground scoring. Now I know there is randomness with that, but if a guy gets two, three takedowns, control for a couple mins and loses a round that's crazy unless he almost got finished. I see that happen too often to be random.

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I was debating whether it was even worth my time to add to this discussion and from some of the posts I'm probably wasting my time, however I'm going to post anyway.

 

I agree with others that the engine at the moment is quite balanced - however I don't agree with what people have said about the randomness.. Too many times fighters go out into the cage and the actions of them don't even come close to replicating what the sliders have been set too. I understand that random numbers are generated but my concern is that there is too much variation..

 

Now by the end of a 3 or 5 round fight generally the fight stats start to match the sliders that have you set. But if you look a bit deeper too much damage can be done early in a fight where energy plays such an important part to the success of the rest of the fight by fighters seemingly ignoring how the sliders have been set all due to the random number being generated for that move.. I don't expect that if you set a fighter for 50% head punches that he finishes with exactly half his moves as head punches. But I do expect that if i am heavily weighted to head punches that my fighter doesn't end up throwing more body shots than head shots..

 

I will leave you with one example where the same fighter has used the exact same sliders in 2 consecutive fights - Takedowns were set at 9%

 

Fight 1

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=755574

 

Fight 2

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=757562

 

In the first fight 3 takedown attempts for the entire fight... In the second fight - 6 takedown attempts in within the first 2 minutes.. That's the randomness that I feel needs to be toned down. That's just one example that well and truly illustrates what I'm trying to say. Smoothing out those sorts of outliers would make for a much better sim that reduces the amount of luck that goes into winning or losing a fight.

 

Just my two cents worth.

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I agree with Stu. Many times I have to scratch my head thinking, why de he do that and why so often. It's not what I had him set to do, but I chalked it up to the algorithm. Even if something is only suppose to happen 1%, of the time you may get that whole 1% right up front (Poker players see this all to often lol).

 

The randomness or confusion if you will that I have seen the most is the announcer saying in one line "we have had a slow start to the round" and then in the very next line, "this has been a great period of action (or one of the comments simular)" and then in the next line or two, "the crowed is getting restless" especially if the fight went to the ground.

 

I agree that the scoring on the ground should probably get an overhaul. Even if the action is none stop (sub attemps, strikes, reversals, counters etc), ground fights get a very low rating unless it is finished in the first min of the fight. Seems ground fighters would have an extra uphill climb in gaining hype. :)

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I was debating whether it was even worth my time to add to this discussion and from some of the posts I'm probably wasting my time, however I'm going to post anyway.

 

I agree with others that the engine at the moment is quite balanced - however I don't agree with what people have said about the randomness.. Too many times fighters go out into the cage and the actions of them don't even come close to replicating what the sliders have been set too. I understand that random numbers are generated but my concern is that there is too much variation..

 

Now by the end of a 3 or 5 round fight generally the fight stats start to match the sliders that have you set. But if you look a bit deeper too much damage can be done early in a fight where energy plays such an important part to the success of the rest of the fight by fighters seemingly ignoring how the sliders have been set all due to the random number being generated for that move.. I don't expect that if you set a fighter for 50% head punches that he finishes with exactly half his moves as head punches. But I do expect that if i am heavily weighted to head punches that my fighter doesn't end up throwing more body shots than head shots..

 

I will leave you with one example where the same fighter has used the exact same sliders in 2 consecutive fights - Takedowns were set at 9%

 

Fight 1

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=755574

 

Fight 2

http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=757562

 

In the first fight 3 takedown attempts for the entire fight... In the second fight - 6 takedown attempts in within the first 2 minutes.. That's the randomness that I feel needs to be toned down. That's just one example that well and truly illustrates what I'm trying to say. Smoothing out those sorts of outliers would make for a much better sim that reduces the amount of luck that goes into winning or losing a fight.

 

Just my two cents worth.

nice examples

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I don't think the engine is too random though I do think there are times where the randomness of it can really hurt your chances in a fight. 1 of the examples is what Stu provided where on 9% TD's you can sometimes only try a couple TD attempts and other times try 6 in a 2 min span which just kills your energy levels.

 

The other example IMO is on the ground. The referee is still so quick to step in and stand fights up that if you set your sliders to let's say 70 agg 75 finish 80 strike on top & you do "2 controls, a failed advance position, a missed GNP & add in a control attempt or 2 from the bottom fighter"....the referee has stepped in now because your guy didn't follow what your plan was.

 

I also agree w/ Stu that people do not account enough for energy levels when things happen in fights. This whole game revolves around those energy levels quite honestly. So many times TD's late in fights get stood up because your guy has 0 energy when he lands the TD and tries to take a brief amount of time to rest and recover energy but when you do that on the ground it leads to a stand-up pretty quickly unless you're lucky enough to land your TD to side control, then you will buy yourself extra time.

 

In the case PBR gave for an example about his fighter not landing any punches? A little bit of that was RNG at the beginning of the fight, but then it became about energy levels. Knowing how Styles has fought most of his career, he was probably somewhere between 65-70 dmg in that fight. If you look at their energy bars at the end of the fight, Styles had 2x the amount of energy as Corl. The reason that makes you miss punches is because losing energy affects your physical levels. So let's say for example that at 50% energy Styles physical levels were somewhere around remarkable. Corl's physicals at that point in the fight were probably around mediocre-competent.

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