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Fight Engine Discussion


MMATycoon

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As I said cause I don't use them: So I have either forgotten the TD escape was slider effected or never know it to start with, lol.

 

Either way I was basically wrong, while I never said it was or wasn't slider related, I could see where you would get that from what I said in that post and if someone asked that direct question to me at the time of that post, I'd probably said it wasn't slider related.

 

Remember I'm called Duphus for a reason

Ah no worries man, my mistake - you've given me plenty of good advice in the past ;)

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I think at the top level of this game there is a problem with too much anti wrestling. Everyone creates anti wrestlers that just strike and escape. However the fact that ground fighters are at a massive disadvantage is a self fulfilling prophecy. There is a perception that anti wrestling builds are better than grappling builds; therefore most people choose to make anti wrestling builds rather than grappling/submission orientated ones. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem with escapes; but there are many more stand up fighters on the game than submission artists; so by the law of averages, more of the fighters who do well and get ranked top 10 P4P are going to be stand up fighters

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I'm aware that people want another tweak to the ground game, specifically related to standups / escapes.

 

I am perfectly happy to increase GNP success and reduce damage and / or add a damage / accuracy slider for GNP. If people want escapes toned down a bit too, cool.

 

So fire away then, if you have any opinions on the matter.

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I don't know why people complain so much about the ground game. I have 2-3 fighters who are verry well trained in those department and they won almost every fight. I'm not sure how it is at the top top level as my fighters aren't to their top skill, but look at this fight:

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=794251

and keep in mind perry has 14 tk def , very good psihycals and 14 wresling with black belt in Bjj and he coudn't stop the takedowns let alone do anything on the ground against a good wrestler.

What do you want from your wrestlers? To go 100% takedowns and win the fight ?

 

Maybe I will get a lot of neg for this post, but just my oppinion. At the top of ufc do you see fighters that can win like GSP with the g&p ? Off course a medal olimpian like Cormier can probably win all his fights with the grappling, but he relies on his striking to get close and get the takedowns. Those times where a wresler can take a fighter and sit on him for 3 rounds are over. All fighters are versatile and almost all of them have very nice takedown def.

 

Another question: If I have 15 tk def with 15 wresling and you have 15 tk with 15 wrestling, who should win the fight to stay on the feet? Me cause I have the perfect defence or you cause you have the perfect offense. Here comes down to gameplan in my oppinion.

 

Another example why I think the server works fine as it is, is my fighter Neculai:

http://mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilemanager.php?FID=270589

9 wins by sub in 1st round, 1 win by sub in 2nd round.

and his only 2 losses come to the same guy by sub.

Either all my opponents really really suck or he does well and gets the fight to the ground and submit his opponents.

 

Again just my oppinion so feel free to correct me if I;m wrong.

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I honestly think takedowns themselves are fine. Just instant escapes are a little over powered and ref stand ups happen a bit too often. So tone down instant escapes and a small increase in G&P accuracy should help reduce the stand ups. It doesn't need a major change I don't think and that should then balance out the stand up and ground games.

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A lot of people don't invest in many grapplers; often sacking them too early for the to get to maximum skill; there are so few grapplers in the top 10 P4P but that might well be because there just isn't as many grapplers as there are strikers as I have said previously in this thread

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A lot of people don't invest in many grapplers; often sacking them too early for the to get to maximum skill; there are so few grapplers in the top 10 P4P but that might well be because there just isn't as many grapplers as there are strikers as I have said previously in this thread

 

I'm not trying to be an asshole here but you have 24 fights in this game. So how can you say what people do or don't do or invest in? This is why I always hate these engine threads because Mike is too worried about pleasing the entire community and you get so many utterly useless opinions in these threads from people who have no idea what they're talking about. But yet their input is for some reason important to Mike in these discussions which is completely mind boggling to me.

 

Personally I don't think you can really look at the top rankings right NOW to gauge anything because of the way the engine is. It favors strikers so of course you're going to see way more strikers in the top rankings. Speaking for myself I can tell you that it was only about 15-18 months ago that my ENTIRE roster had grappling skills. Most of those fighters had capped out and started to decline so have since been cut or retired. My current roster of fighters I have maybe 5 guys w/ offensive ground skills and I'm way more of a ground manager than a striking manager. But due to the engine there was no point in building grapplers in my rebuild. It was best to just take all their sprawl and brawl skills to elite first and wait to see if the engine was fixed before I'd even consider adding any grapple skills.

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I'm sure all of this has been said already, but I figure I'd throw in my 2 cents.

 

Insta-escapes should be toned down. I think they should remain in the game as they are realistic, but they are definitely too common right now.

 

Takedowns at the elite level need to be beefed up a tad. I have a guy with a near max-wrestling and elite takedowns and he often plays hell to get opponents down at all, and definitely struggles in general.

 

Guillotines as a counter to both shoot takedowns and clinch takedowns would be a great addition.

 

Also, the post-knockdown flavor text should have the option to result in a submission rather than always TKO (strikes). This is both more realistic and would be another source to beef up submission finishes, which seem to be lagging statistically.

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I'm not trying to be an asshole here but you have 24 fights in this game. So how can you say what people do or don't do or invest in? This is why I always hate these engine threads because Mike is too worried about pleasing the entire community and you get so many utterly useless opinions in these threads from people who have no idea what they're talking about. But yet their input is for some reason important to Mike in these discussions which is completely mind boggling to me.

 

Personally I don't think you can really look at the top rankings right NOW to gauge anything because of the way the engine is. It favors strikers so of course you're going to see way more strikers in the top rankings. Speaking for myself I can tell you that it was only about 15-18 months ago that my ENTIRE roster had grappling skills. Most of those fighters had capped out and started to decline so have since been cut or retired. My current roster of fighters I have maybe 5 guys w/ offensive ground skills and I'm way more of a ground manager than a striking manager. But due to the engine there was no point in building grapplers in my rebuild. It was best to just take all their sprawl and brawl skills to elite first and wait to see if the engine was fixed before I'd even consider adding any grapple skills.

 

 

That's key. There should be an incentive to add grappling skills to sprawl and brawlers. My suggestion is to increase the "variety boost" when doing multiple things, as you always keep your opponent guessing. If you just went for a takedown, and it was threatening/close, shouldn't strikes then land easier for some time afterwards? This is probably already inside the engine, perhaps increase the effect a little.

 

Perhaps guys with less experience have a harder time switching between grappling/striking? Realistically, if a takedown almost just succeeded, the opponents stance changes (widens) to more of a wrestling stance to prevent further takedowns.

 

But these pure Robbie Lawler-esque sprawl and brawlers are all over MMA, at the highest level (also Anthony Johnsson), so it has to be a viable tactic.

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I am trying to read through this today but my concentration levels are not there for 4 pages of proper discussion... I'll keep chipping away :S

 

Edit - I've read through the thread now and I have my own thoughts on it. I will try and post tonight. It's the missus' birthday but will have time after she's gone to bed.

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OK, so my thoughts....

 

I think the main thing we should do is add a damage / accuracy slider for GNP. If you definitely wanna stay on the ground, crank up accuracy. That would likely lead to more action and possibly more counter opportunities too. We'd have to see and potentially tweak its effectiveness later on.

 

Now, the rest of the stuff... I feel it's a bit half hearted / small patches. Yeah, it would make the game slightly better to have a slightly better balance of immediate escapes, counter subs off those escapes etc etc... However, it's just a slightly better version of what we have. I think we should really consider dropping the skills cap and making the fight engine just work better overall.

 

Lots of the stuff in the fight engine works off offense as a % of the opponent's defense... So let's say you have 145 offense and the opponent has 130 defense. That's 145/130=1.115 - basically the offensive guy is 11.5% better.... so when we have such a high skill cap and every fighter is more or less the same, the fight engine just doesn't perform as well as it would if the fighters were more varied with lower overall skills.

 

I can probably come up with an equation change to make e.g. a 10 point skill advantage at a higher level have more of an impact than it does now... But I just feel that would be an inferior solution to having more varied fighters. Wouldn't that just be a more interesting game concept overall? None of us could really say how the current fight engine would perform under this lower skill cap, which is why I haven't really discussed the other ideas.

 

There are several ways we could do it but right now I just wanna see what you guys' general thoughts on that are.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would also be in favour of adding a 3rd training slot per day and shortening the game year by a couple of weeks. With that, we would have a more dynamic game with more options and it would let us have semi-private gyms, as a solution to the private / public gym issue. I think this all fits well together with a lower overall skill cap.

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Your suggestions here sounds pretty good. the dmg/acc slider for the ground, lowering the skill cap ( i dont know how much tho would be good) and the extra training slot sounds awesome, i never heard that idea and the shorter in game year.

 

I like all those changes if they get implemented and it would be really interesting to see, like you say how the lower skill cap will make a change to your tactic and fights.

 

All good to me Mike. :)

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how will extra training spot and energy use via training be worked out? will it be less energy used per session -- cause unless change energy use then 3rd session is not as useful -- i mean it can be used but will still require couple rest session so might get extra couple sessions -- might just be easier to do away with sunday being rest and make it training day also -- but also everyone has different thoughts and ways of training i guess -- im for drop in skills cap though

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how will extra training spot and energy use via training be worked out? will it be less energy used per session -- cause unless change energy use then 3rd session is not as useful -- i mean it can be used but will still require couple rest session so might get extra couple sessions -- might just be easier to do away with sunday being rest and make it training day also -- but also everyone has different thoughts and ways of training i guess -- im for drop in skills cap though

 

your not big on the dmg/acc slider for the ground?

 

but good point on the training, i was reading it this morning and wasent fully awake.

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OK, so my thoughts....

 

I think the main thing we should do is add a damage / accuracy slider for GNP. If you definitely wanna stay on the ground, crank up accuracy. That would likely lead to more action and possibly more counter opportunities too. We'd have to see and potentially tweak its effectiveness later on.

 

Now, the rest of the stuff... I feel it's a bit half hearted / small patches. Yeah, it would make the game slightly better to have a slightly better balance of immediate escapes, counter subs off those escapes etc etc... However, it's just a slightly better version of what we have. I think we should really consider dropping the skills cap and making the fight engine just work better overall.

 

Lots of the stuff in the fight engine works off offense as a % of the opponent's defense... So let's say you have 145 offense and the opponent has 130 defense. That's 145/130=1.115 - basically the offensive guy is 11.5% better.... so when we have such a high skill cap and every fighter is more or less the same, the fight engine just doesn't perform as well as it would if the fighters were more varied with lower overall skills.

 

I can probably come up with an equation change to make e.g. a 10 point skill advantage at a higher level have more of an impact than it does now... But I just feel that would be an inferior solution to having more varied fighters. Wouldn't that just be a more interesting game concept overall? None of us could really say how the current fight engine would perform under this lower skill cap, which is why I haven't really discussed the other ideas.

 

There are several ways we could do it but right now I just wanna see what you guys' general thoughts on that are.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would also be in favour of adding a 3rd training slot per day and shortening the game year by a couple of weeks. With that, we would have a more dynamic game with more options and it would let us have semi-private gyms, as a solution to the private / public gym issue. I think this all fits well together with a lower overall skill cap.

 

I personally love both the ideas of finally having the acc/dmg slider for gnp and the idea of lowering the current unrealistic skill cap (more than once I've seen elite-elite-elite-black primaries btw...)

 

The 3rd training slot could be a nice addition too, but I'd favour the other two in terms of game balance priority.

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