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Optional Primary's


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Poll: Selective Primary's or not? (159 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you think this is a good idea?

  1. Yes (142 votes [86.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 86.59%

  2. No (22 votes [13.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.41%

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#1 Rambo

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 05:52 AM

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QUOTE (Eversor @ May 5 2010, 09:46 AM)
You could choose either one for one of the four primaries:

Boxing / Kick Boxing
Muay Thai / Karate
Wrestling / Judo
BJJ / Sambo


The primaries would affect secondaries something along these lines (both offensive and defensive):

Boxing has better punches than Karate, but Karate affects kicks.

Kick Boxing has better punches than Muay Thai, but Muay Thai has better clinchgame.

Wrestling has better takedowns for shooting from afar, but Judo has better takedowns from the clinch.

BJJ has better chokes, but Sambo has better leglocks.


No gamebreaking changes, just a small coefficient to add a little more flavor. Existing fighters could have a one time opportunity to change their primaries to corresponding ones if they so wish for.




Reviving a quote form an old thread and although not an immediate important must have improvement, I think this is actually a really, really, good & creative idea that would add a lot more depth, etc. Could use some revising of course, but the base idea is great.



Instead of every fighter being boxer/muay thai/wrestler/bjj we could have something that makes them a lil different. The only challenge is finding the perfect style to pair up with it's counter part. I.E. to "argue with the quote" Boxing & Kickboxing could be paired up, but then what would you pair up with muay thai? And for Sambo, I'd say it gets a small boost to GNP & takedowns, and BJJ is submissions and defensive grappling. Maybe instead of "Karate" call it "Martial Arts" to give it a more broad horizon for the imagination of styles. Who knows.


The only reason why I could see somebody suggesting against it is; everything fuctions as it is, it could be extremely complicated.


Contrary to some belief, you really wouldn't have to add any additional flavor text. The most challenging thing in my mind about this would be tweaking the benefits you'd get for what primary, and programming that into the system, and also I don't know how secondaries and primaries mesh to create a "total" for the game's fight engine, all that is extremely complex to me. So if it required a major overhaul, obviously it really wouldn't be worth all the time but I firmly believe that the idea of seeing and being able to select one of two options, per primary, would be awesome.



Not 100% sure if this was shot down or not, I seen a thread about "adding primary's" recently closed, but I'm not asking for a complete overhaul or anything like that, I would think it could be as simple as adding selective/optional text upon fighter creation? --- if that makes any sense. If it doesn't I could elaborate.
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#2

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:57 AM

I'm pretty sure I've suggested this too, and to my knowledge it was never shot down.

The idea is to have a small coefficient, either positive or negative, affect aspects of skills that primary governs. While it won't be gamebreaking, it adds a lot of strategy to building fighters, and it's fun! smile.gif
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#3 CardiffWanderer

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:04 AM

I see this as the only feasible way of adding extra primaries into the game. Whether it would be possible on the technical side, only Mike and his programmers could say.

Due to the amount of "add primary" threads, ones without purpose or thought are to being shut as they have been digressing into arguments to quickly and nothing productive have come out of them. If people have actual ideas, they will not be shut.

The only thing I strongly disagree with is the belief extra text won't be needed. Saying this as someone who deals with "My fighter is taller but in this fight the commentary said the other fighter was using his height effectively, surely something is wrong" and "x couldn't punch y in z situation" on a daily basis, adding new primaries would just end up with everything being swamped with this cannot work because of ...... threads and on chat.
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#4

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:12 AM

I really like the base idea, but imagine it'd be a ton of work to balance well.

I wonder, if those coefficients were applied to learning rates rather than performance in the fights, if it could appease some other common concerns about hitting skill caps.
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#5

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (CardiffWanderer @ Jan 14 2011, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only thing I strongly disagree with is the belief extra text won't be needed. Saying this as someone who deals with "My fighter is taller but in this fight the commentary said the other fighter was using his height effectively, surely something is wrong" and "x couldn't punch y in z situation" on a daily basis, adding new primaries would just end up with everything being swamped with this cannot work because of ...... threads and on chat.


The way I see it re: flavor text: Judo and most kinds of wrestling have mostly the same takedowns, and I doubt many people would take offense if English flavor text was used for the takedowns, as it's common for MMA commentators to do the same anyways. If "martial arts" was implemented as opposed to, say, Karate, we wouldn't need to call front kicks Mae Geri and round kicks Mawashi Geri in the flavor text either. In general, I don't think I agree with you here.

Also, I totally want a wrestling\sambo GnP fighter and a Judo\MT clinch dude.

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#6 Rambo

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (Mannetosen @ Jan 14 2011, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm pretty sure I've suggested this too, and to my knowledge it was never shot down.

The idea is to have a small coefficient, either positive or negative, affect aspects of skills that primary governs. While it won't be gamebreaking, it adds a lot of strategy to building fighters, and it's fun! smile.gif


Yeah that's what I'm tryin to say. We're definitely on the same page. As in the example, boxing would give you say bonus's (no matter how small or "non-gamebreaking" they may be) to punches/punch technique, karate (striking defense?), kickboxing to kicks, BJJ to subs, Sambo to GNP, wrestling to takedowns, etc.


QUOTE (CardiffWanderer @ Jan 14 2011, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I see this as the only feasible way of adding extra primaries into the game. Whether it would be possible on the technical side, only Mike and his programmers could say.

Due to the amount of "add primary" threads, ones without purpose or thought are to being shut as they have been digressing into arguments to quickly and nothing productive have come out of them. If people have actual ideas, they will not be shut.

The only thing I strongly disagree with is the belief extra text won't be needed. Saying this as someone who deals with "My fighter is taller but in this fight the commentary said the other fighter was using his height effectively, surely something is wrong" and "x couldn't punch y in z situation" on a daily basis, adding new primaries would just end up with everything being swamped with this cannot work because of ...... threads and on chat.


I 100% agree with the bolded. Also I disagree about the initial "need" for the flavor text to reflect primaries and such. That could be a slow process that can transition over time, I don't think the actual moves we see pop up in the fights themselves matter as much as the main idea. Over time I can see the addition of text and implementing all that into the commentary but it's not something that I'd say is an absolute must right away thing.


QUOTE (Mannetosen @ Jan 14 2011, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The way I see it re: flavor text: Judo and most kinds of wrestling have mostly the same takedowns, and I doubt many people would take offense if English flavor text was used for the takedowns, as it's common for MMA commentators to do the same anyways. If "martial arts" was implemented as opposed to, say, Karate, we wouldn't need to call front kicks Mae Geri and round kicks Mawashi Geri in the flavor text either. In general, I don't think I agree with you here.

Also, I totally want a wrestling\sambo GnP fighter and a Judo\MT clinch dude.


Obviously we're on the same page once again -- at least it looks like it lol one thing that would need to be added is Tale of the Tape text. It wouldn't be "world class boxer" it'd be "K-1 level kickboxer" and so on and so forth.
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#7

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:02 AM

"Karate x Belt"

"Professional Kickboxing Background"

"Master of Sports in Sambo"

"Judo x Belt"

Just a few examples.

As for effects, I imagine something like this:

Karate: -10% to punches, +5% to striking defense and kicks.

Kickboxing: +15% to punches, -5% to clinch, elbows, knees.

Judo: -5% to GnP, takedown defense and takedowns (outside of the clinch), +5% to defensive grappling, clinch and takedowns (in the clinch).

Sambo: -5% to submissions and defensive grappling, +5% to GnP and takedowns.

Numbers are subject to change, of course.
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#8 Rambo

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Mannetosen @ Jan 14 2011, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Karate x Belt"

"Professional Kickboxing Background"

"Master of Sports in Sambo"

"Judo x Belt"

Just a few examples.

As for effects, I imagine something like this:

Karate: -10% to punches, +5% to striking defense and kicks.

Kickboxing: +15% to punches, -5% to clinch, elbows, knees.

Judo: -5% to GnP, takedown defense and takedowns (outside of the clinch), +5% to defensive grappling, clinch and takedowns (in the clinch).

Sambo: -5% to submissions and defensive grappling, +5% to GnP and takedowns.

Numbers are subject to change, of course.



Agreed. I would make it a lot less of an impact and just keep like the small bonus's when selecting primary's. I feel it'd just complicate things a lot less, and there's at least 1 ability/secondary that we could all agree on that a style should improve or add "bonus" too. I feel the plus's and the minus's would/could potentially complicate things or cause a disturbance and argument.
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#9

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 11:44 AM

I don't see why we shouldn't have advantages and disadvantages with every style personally. Makes it more of a strategic choice.
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#10

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 01:03 PM

QUOTE (Mannetosen @ Jan 14 2011, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see why we shouldn't have advantages and disadvantages with every style personally. Makes it more of a strategic choice.


In my opinion the advantages and disadvantages could be something like karate has quicker kicks than MT and therefore more accurate, whereas MT has more damaging kicks.

Maybe they could both be implemented so that different styles would have an positive/negative effect directly to the skill but maybe also so that for example Karate and MT kicks would be basically equal, Karate kicks quicker, MT kicks more damaging.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but it would add very much depth to the game.

And this is not something that I expect to see anytime soon, but at some point this would definately be a good add.
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#11

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE (DeadgameINC @ Dec 16 2009, 03:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay to clarify more. When creating a fighter you could choose his overall Martial Art Backgound, for example: MMA (which is your BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Wrestleing) or Traditional ( Taekwondo, Karate, Kenpo, Kung Fu, Akido, Hapkido). Depending on what you choose for your fighter, will depend on how many attribute points he gets as well as hidden abilites based on his Martial Arts upbringing. Offcourse once you start out in the game you can cross train at the gyms to imporve or learn MMA. This leads to another item, GYMS, having the ability to add Traditional as a fighter style you can have gyms that will continue to teach in these arts! Thus creating more coaches! You can have your fighter who is a trained in MMA / Kickboxing train in a GYM that teaches Kenpo / Taekwondo, allowing him to greatly improve in his kicking and stricking game more than your normal muay thai!. Cross training like this could make your fighter pop faster! That could be an added bonus, or stick to MMA only! If Traditional was added the extra attributes could be:

KICKING COMINATIONS: Add the ability to land multiple kicks, spin kicks, etc as seen in Taekwondo and Karate

JUMPING: The ability to do Jump Kicks, Flying Knees and so forth as seen in Taekwondo

CORE FOUNDATION: Karate and Kenpo practitioners have iron like foundations, this would make your fighter tuff as a nail, thus allowing your fighter to rarely get injured and the ability to take punishment! (Kind of like a Boxers granite chin) A lot harder to fight! This would start off as Useless 10-

REFLEX: found in Karate and Taekwondo, this would allow your fighter to counter faster and better, avoid damage, and be more accurate!

JOINT THROWS: The ability as seen in Akido and Hapkido, your fighter will imporve on one arm takedowns, catching kicks, imporve joint manipulation on the ground and so forth

These would be added in the additional stats along with the four new stats for having a figther selected as Traditonal
Offcourse already created fighters can cross train in the new GYMs that teach traditional, and will have these added to there stats starting off at Useless. So there should be no crying about already created fighers!

The Four New Stats that will show in the Fighter profile for a fighter who selected Traditional as his background

KICKING: i.e. Abysmal, Wondeful and so forth

PUNCHING: i.e. Remarkable, Superb, and so forth

MMA: i.e. what his level of cross training in MMA, is it Woeful, Competent, Superb!

Black Belt in: i.e. his style be it Taekwondo, karate, Kenpo and so forth

I think this would add a whole realistic level to MMA Tycoon and open up tons of new options and what if's, whos better and so forth. Most of todays MMA Stars have traditional background in a traditional martial art and they shine for that! This would make MMA Tycoon a complete Mixed Martial Art game!

This is just my opinion and it would be a lot of work but a good investment!




I posted this back in 09, its been brought up before, this was when i first started playing and did not understand the fight engine or game yet. But I see where you are coming from. My reason for this was because we see a lot of traditional martial art fighters in MMA, some use that and dominate! But this is just to let you see that this has been asked for long, long, ago! I do like the small changes that Mannetosen posted, a lot more basic then what I posted back in the day!
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#12 Blindsided

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:43 PM

With that basis you could have it add points to certain secondaries of the fighters.

For example
Boxing +5 Punches, +5 Agility
Karate +5 Striking Defense, +5 Speed
Kickboxing +5 Kicks, +5 Balance
Muay Thai +5 Knees, +5 Flexibility
Judo +5 Takedown Offense, +5 Agility
Wrestling +5 Takedown Offense, +5 Speed
BJJ +5 Submissions, +5 Flexibility
Sambo +5 Ground and Pound, +5 Balance

That way it adds a few points to a specialized category and a(somewhat) specialized physical. You would have to tweak the overall points that are given when the fighter is made to account for the added points for skills. This would just add a little more RPG element to the game. Also, the undertaking that would happen for the game text would probably be pretty large. It would probably take a while to introduce this concept.
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#13 DeadlyDirk

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:20 PM

We need Savate!
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#14 Blindsided

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:35 PM

Ok Gerard Gordeau!
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<Gable>: I am good. I've made more in one event most ever make.

<where_u_at>: engrish ?

<Gable>: I've made more in one event than most ever make.

<Blindsided>:

<Gable>: Well played, Chan.

<where_u_at>: well sucked , gable

<Blindsided>: LOLOCAUST

<Gable>: That doesn't even make the remotest sense.

<Blindsided>: "well sucked, gable"

<where_u_at>: u mad ?


#15

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:48 PM

I like this a lot i prefer a point addition rather than a percentage addition because then it would penalize those with higher abilities more which i dont think should be the case because a good fighter should be able to cover there flaws (that is if disadvantages will be included), if this idea goes ahead i think a vote should be installed for 2 stat point advantages and disadvantages for each (or one) rather than speculating now
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#16

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 07:43 AM

I think this would make it cooler instead of people all having the same stuff, we could see which managers prefer which too
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#17 Rambo

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 08:53 AM

QUOTE (Blindsided @ Jan 14 2011, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
With that basis you could have it add points to certain secondaries of the fighters.

For example
Boxing +5 Punches, +5 Agility
Karate +5 Striking Defense, +5 Speed
Kickboxing +5 Kicks, +5 Balance
Muay Thai +5 Knees, +5 Flexibility
Judo +5 Takedown Offense, +5 Agility
Wrestling +5 Takedown Offense, +5 Speed
BJJ +5 Submissions, +5 Flexibility
Sambo +5 Ground and Pound, +5 Balance

That way it adds a few points to a specialized category and a(somewhat) specialized physical. You would have to tweak the overall points that are given when the fighter is made to account for the added points for skills. This would just add a little more RPG element to the game. Also, the undertaking that would happen for the game text would probably be pretty large. It would probably take a while to introduce this concept.




This, for the most part, and point addition over percentage is definitely a smarter idea based off the fact of high levels and such. That makes sense.
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Posted 15 January 2011 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE (DeadlyDirk @ Jan 14 2011, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We need Savate!


If we don't get to wear magic submission spats into the cage, there's no way boots should be permitted.
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#19

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 08:17 AM

+1 to this idea. I have thought about this many times before, though havent thought of it quite as you have. Any way you look at it, so long as it is programmed logically it can only add depth to the game
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#20 jls.monster

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:34 AM

+1
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