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Economy


jjsquirrel

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For clothes/nutrition companies we already have a small amount of event sales that generate extra income on top of real sales. What if we expanded this? Make sales happen on a weekly basis to a simulated general public and make it draw from the product stock like real sales. How much you sell is based on company hype + product price + quality but does not generate new hype. Only sales to actual fighters generate hype. In total sales will be up and total income as well so we should also add something on the expenses side.

 

Next make it possible to expand production capacity. Expanding is a one-time cost but capacity also comes with a running cost. It should be possible for a company to not be profitable (even if rare to actually happen). Reducing capacity again should be possible to avoid bankruptcy if you overexpanded but must also have a one time cost. This will put some long term strategy into running a company.

 

Next make hype gains come from fighters actually using your products and not from sales. This gets rid of hype gained from laundry. Since hype now has a more direct effect on earnings and the possibility to grow your company sponsorships will become more important.

 

Also add quality to clothes. Not from research, but similar in game mechanics requiring investment into your production capacity to be able to produce higher quality. Running a clothes company today has very little in terms of gameplay mechanics.

 

Higher quality products should have higher production costs. Part of this is to provide a natural price difference, but also to make laundry with high quality products less efficient.

 

With this I see 3 viable strategies for a product company:

  • High-end products for professional fighters with money
  • Lower quality products can also serve a purpose for the general market at lower prices
  • Laundry, will earn money but almost no hype

You could specialize in one or more of them, the key thing is it adds some strategic decision making to running a company.

 

Other small touches could be added like immediately generating a few sales (related to hype) if a fighter wears your clothes when winning a fight, or at least a title fight. Let sponsors compete for the top fighters.

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No replies, but I'll go on myself since I just happen to enjoy thinking about game design.. someone mentioned adding another company type.

 

So, a general fight equipment company making things like gloves, pads, sandbags or gym machines. Follow similar model as above that items produced has a quality and company has expandable production capacity.

 

Sales directly to fighters are one part of the market, especially if also adding things like training related injuries. Good equipment could lower risk of injury from sparring - or even allow you to train despite injury if you have knee supports etc. (requires fleshing out the injury system some). We could have official gloves for orgs, at least if you aim to be a high-profile one. Personal equipment should not decay as fast as clothes I think, would just be more micromanagement, so make it much slower. I imagine gloves being lower volume, higher price compared to clothes.

 

The main part of sales would anyway be to gyms. When replacing equipment you have to buy from an actual company. This would also provide possibilities to expand the gym management. Quality could affect gain from training - or simply how long it lasts before needing replacement depending on what model you go for. It could also be that a full set of machines of different types are needed to get max gain from strength/circuit training.

We could put in some requirements that gyms need to keep a certain number of gloves, pads, mats or whatever to enable all training forms ("sorry guys, all our pads are worn-out, cannot do punch technique training for another 3 days until the new ones arrive"). This will add more costs to running a gym, it could be balanced by lowering coach costs.

 

Equipment companies should have a hype level and be able to sponsor fighters. New gloves can have a fighter morale effect same as clothes. Hype could provide some extra sales per week to the "general market". It will need some more uses as well, maybe in relation to gym hype if we add that also which could in turn improve mechanics of running public gyms. The next natural step after adding gym equipment would be an overhaul of gym management and how you run public/private gyms. While public gym is an option already it should be possible to make it a much more interesting and viable one to actually run as a company if we had some more parameters to play with.

 

The above would take a lot of development effort and require additional game mechanics to provide tie-ins with the rest of the game. But if we want to have another company type I don't see any quick and easy way to do it if we also want it to be a meaningful expansion to existing gameplay. I mean we could just clone the current clothing company mechanics and replace shirts/shorts with gloves/mouthguards for little development effort, but how interesting would that be.

 

Not really well thought through, just dumping some ideas here which is the easy part. Putting numbers on it and making a real game design is harder.. and also takes knowledge of existing formulas which only Mike has.

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Dude, this is an essay. But I can tell its coherent and well phrased. The whole economy needs to be revamped, expanded. It's been like this EXACTLY for so many years. I've written about it before. But other things seems to take priority. It would add to the game experience A LOT if the economy became better, more sophisticated.

 

The easiest change with most effect would be to allow 2 companies per person. This would actually mean a lot for the players.

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Next make hype gains come from fighters actually using your products and not from sales. This gets rid of hype gained from laundry. Since hype now has a more direct effect on earnings and the possibility to grow your company sponsorships will become more important.

 

 

So laundry does also add hype? I had no idea about this! Never engaged in laundry. Be it from one side or the other.

 

Here is something that I have said before and I will say it again. Get rid of laundry. THAT needs to happen. Because it allows businesses to make more money by head-to-head interactions with individual players, that are solely to the benefit of these two, and that is the end of it. Needles to say that it takes advantage of in-game mechanics in a way that was never intended. Look no further than to the richest supplement company right now. Not one item on offer, other than their bogus laundry item and not one fighter sponsored. It is the richest nutrition company, without having jack-shit to do with nutrition!

 

We cannot talk about the economy without investing a few thoughts in regard to the dwindling player base. Because these things go hand in hand, imo.

 

Between my two stints here, a little more than a year has passed if I am not mistaken. The player base, it appears, has taken a quite noticeable dip since. And it seems also to be agreed upon here, that this is somewhat of an issue.

 

One thing about this game is that it has a fairly steep learning curve. It certainly isn’t for everyone and that is fine. As a matter of fact, that is one thing that I like about it. But one real detriment that I see, is how this game’s economy, or rather the community that is running it, behaves. I think, the community has become really complacent in some respects. There is always all this talk going around, about how much money there is in this game’s economy. Well, that is not quite how things are looking through the eyes of a new player: 250 bucks in pocket and maybe roundabout 1.200 or so on his fighter(s).

 

Fun question: Why the fuck is there a check box “need sponsors”? When was that ever good for a damn thing? It just struck me today, when my main sponsor vanished over night and I had to start shopping around, once again, for worthwhile (!) sponsorship deals for my fighters: I have, neither during my first stint nor now have EVER been contacted by a sponsor. I am quite certain, that I ALWAYS had to initiate that. The fact that this check box exists, will have new players thinking: “Cool, this is how sponsors will find me.” Chances are, that they will be waiting for a long time. That is if they care to wait.

 

Which leads me right to the next thing: The majority of potential sponsors care very little about sponsoring or are ridiculously greedy about it (obviously, laundering money is less of a hassle). Often so much so, that I wonder why they even bother to reply to begin with. I had offers coming back to me, that had me laughing! Like 80 bucks and a 10er or so a day!

Well thank you, kind sir! Tears of joy will run down my cheeks, when I and my fighters can now afford the budget cheeseburgers in the deserted part of town! And a bubblegum of top on that! Now I can open up a barrel in celebration ….. and then move into the barrel …. like permanently!”

 

At least, that is how I would feel about it as a new player. And rightfully so!

 

Sponsorship money is very important. Especially in the beginning, as it helps to offset, and be it just partially, the cost of training your fighters. Because you sure as hell don’t achieve that with QFC money. And given how expensive public training is in most places, this problem is all the more emphasized. But sponsors don’t approach anybody and are often either completely ignorant about requests …. or you get some slap in the face as an offer, like the shit that I just described.

 

And that is something new. During my first stint, I typically had to go from door to door as well to get sponsorship for my stable of fighters going. So that already didn't work. But at least there were several addresses, which paid pretty good (Aspire, Urban Fighter, Kaiser Nutrition, Rags of a Ronin, Hell’s Balls etc.). That has definitely changed for the worse.

 

How the hell can that be, when the general consensus is that there is so much more money in the game? Because as a new player, this game sure has some built-in pay walls, in regard to it’s in-game currency. When I started out and asked a few questions in the chat, Ruphus Duphus was answering them and sent me 20k … just because he felt like it. Who knows, what that did for me? But most new players aren’t that lucky. And money will be tough for them to come by.

 

It's very easy to lose sight of that, because from a certain point forward, (once you have picked some halfway decent free agents or get yourself a winner in enough QFC bouts) you start to see some better paydays and the game gradually becomes smooth sailing from there on. But before that? Odds are stacked against new players!

 

Laundry plays a part in that. Because it creates a bubble where those, who can easily snatch free agents with a budget and squeeze them, catch a shit ton of money that they have exclusive access to (given how the handing out of free agents works). So in a nutshell, the top players, who could easily get any sponsorship they want, don't really need it anyway. And many businesses feel like not handing them out apparently, since there is an easier way. Laundry sabotages the economy of this game in more ways than one. It makes nonsense businesses rich, it makes the (likely to be) richest players even richer and it creates absolutely nothing beyond of the scope of the head-to-head interaction that it is.

 

Laundry is bullshit.

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Just one current example. Clothing company.


80% Laundry

Price : $ 300

Stock : 5567


That is a volume of 1.670.100 bucks

20% of that .... sounds like a solid deal.


The thing with laundry is that it is risk free money for those, who offer it and bullshit money for those, who take it. Risk free because it is a pure means to an end. It WILL be bought. Period!

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Yes changes to both laundry and sponsorships are part of my ideas above. Laundry doesn't have to go completely, but in a working economy it should not play any major part. Making money in the bank be part of fighter morale calculation has been suggested elsewhere and would also fit in nicely with improving the economy side. But there is a point in having different ways to play the game that are all viable. Being a Don King stealing your fighters money could be one, but it should not be a clear-cut decision that everyone will choose, rather something more niche that also has downsides.

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Being a Don King stealing your fighters money could be one, but it should not be a clear-cut decision that everyone will choose, rather something more niche that also has downsides.

 

Exactly! Because right now there is zero detriment to it. One would think that part of being a good manager, is that your fighter dosn't end a homeless bum afterwards. But this game doesn't mirror that at all.

 

Just add a hidden attribute (a rating essentially) to the managers. Whenever they rip their fighters off, this rating should sharply decline. And it should heavily factor in a manager's chances to pick up free agents. Also, a really low rating should result in morale penalties for their fighters. Because who is loving live, when Don King is his boss?

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Just one current example. Clothing company.
80% Laundry
Price : $ 300
Stock : 5567
That is a volume of 1.670.100 bucks
20% of that .... sounds like a solid deal.
The thing with laundry is that it is risk free money for those, who offer it and bullshit money for those, who take it. Risk free because it is a pure means to an end. It WILL be bought. Period!

 

and that profit can be surpasses with one months stock priced at $100, which is lower than most clothing stores have clothes listed as

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and that profit can be surpasses with one months stock priced at $100, which is lower than most clothing stores have clothes listed as

 

Just picked up a free agent, these are his possesions:

 

Clothing
CoolClothing Laundry T-Shirt (64) 958
80% Laundry (64) 358
Supplements
Laundry 80% (Weight loss, 14000 days) 1000
LAUNDRY 15% (Weight loss, 14000 days) 1000

Over 3.400 items, all of which solely served the purpose to move money. Guaranteed, convenient income! For all involved (safe for the fighters, that is^^)! Can you say the same for regular sales – especially with such a wide array of choices out there? When it comes to a regular month’s stock, players actually need to care for that stuff. Also, how many clothes do you need, before you stockpiled and it takes a long time before you buy, let alone need some again? Let alone in serious quantities. And BTW, who knows to which extent laundry factors also in, when selling regular stuff? For many companies offer both. C’mon buddy, I've picked up enough free agents, with 2 shorts and 100 shirts that weren't dedicated laundry items. I know what that means. Everybody does! Especially if the fighter has a few hundred bucks left.

 

In order to enjoy regular revenue, you need to build up your brand and people need to care for your stuff. In order to make money with laundry, you need to stockpile some cheap, useless shit and sell it for top dollar, so that smaller quantities can move more money. Be it a bland white shirt, some butt ugly pants, a homeopathic supplement …. whatever.

 

Which one sounds more difficult? Which one doesn’t require a lick of effort? And which one makes any god damn sense? It’s a no-brainer.

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Do I? How many pure laundry operations are out there? Seriously, go through highstreet and take a peek. If that shit isn't worth it, a few guys out there seem to disagree with you.

 

And of what concern is it to them, how much they could make by legitimate busniess anyway? Such a business needs to be groomed. Laundry? Pfffff! Just make sure that you have enough cash, so that you can spin a load of junk into more cash and take it from there. And the more you are willing to reinvest, the more bulk you can create, the more you can gain in the future. It is a risk free automatism.

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Do I? How many pure laundry operations are out there? Seriously, go through highstreet and take a peek. If that shit isn't worth it, a few guys out there seem to disagree with you.

 

And of what concern is it to them, how much they could make by legitimate busniess anyway? Such a business needs to be groomed. Laundry? Pfffff! Just make sure that you have enough cash, so that you can spin a load of junk into more cash and take it from there. And the more you are willing to reinvest, the more bulk you can create, the more you can gain in the future. It is a risk free automatism.

i didnt say it wasnt worth it.... my ONLY point is there is more PROFIT to be made by the company owner by selling regular stock, so yes you did miss my point

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I don't do laundry, I think I had a mil when I started HXF that came from selling VIP. I sell everything cheap that kills my inventory but I always make a profit.

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i didnt say it wasnt worth it.... my ONLY point is there is more PROFIT to be made by the company owner by selling regular stock, so yes you did miss my point

 

I DO get your point. But what dent is that putting into the laundry businesses being EASILY successful? The lure of laundry is not limited to how much you make per item transfered, but how straight-forward it is. Anybody with basic math skills cannot fuck that up! And the ONLY reason why it is potentially less profitable, is because you are "selling" your junk items for 60 bucks a pop maximum (assuming a price of 300 and a rate of 80%).

 

But there are tremendous upsides to laundry, that make it such an attractive proposition for business owners:

 

- You don't have to worry about slow sales, because chances are you will sell a major haul (if not even everything) in one foul swoop. Not even a reduced user base messes that up, because the folks who buy laundry, are typically not the ones, who started playing yesterday. Can you say the same about regular sales? When the player base is low, the general sales stand to feel it over time.

 

- It's low maintenance. Just order bulk, sit, wait, done. You don't have to design a single shirt! It's a brief mouse clicking operation, like checking your mail. Considering the real time invested, it stands to be by far the most efficient business.

 

- You can operate at the maximum buy low/sell high ratio. This is certainly true for nutrition laundry. Where you don't have to research anything, since that isn't the point of the entire ordeal anyway. But still you can sell it at 300 a piece.

 

 

Also, laundry potentially hurts the clothing orgs. I have picked up several free agents with hundreds of clothing items. So technically, I would never have to buy a single item for such a fighter again. Not saying that I go about it like that. But it is a readily available option and I can just speak for me.

 

Oh, and we haven't even addressed yet, what laundry means on the other side of the fence. Because while the two of us can have a back and forth about laundry being this and that business-wise, there is little dispute that it is the best way to make money for the players, who are taking advantage of it. It turns their 20% cut into 80-90% effectively.

 

Seriously, the fact that such an obvious symptom of a broken economy has been allowed to go on for so long is just straight-up weird!

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If you aren't opening a store, selling your 3500 items at $300, closing your store, waiting the mandatory days and opening a new store then repeating you're doing laundry wrong anyway.

 

Well, that explains why these things spring up and fade again so quickly. And why there are sole purpose laundry operations basically at any given time. Why is that? Talk us through it, man from the underground.^^

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And there is also the other kind of nastier exploit, wait until you get a big order, instead of returning the money send it to your main account and create a new multi with a new laundry company.

I think the economy of laundry is pretty much clear now after this discussion. I still don't think it has to go away completely, at least not yet as the rest of the game is at the moment. But some adjustments would be nice. Also getting rid of multis would be nice, both for the economy and the game in general.

 

I was running a clothes company for a while when I was relatively new in the game and it was depressing to see pure laundry companies ahead of me in hype even when I was sponsoring fighters aggressively.

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You can make ridiculous money with a clothing store if done properly through having designs people will pay good money for, doing giveaways, sponsorships and keeping your hype up. Also, having a good merch deal is key.

 

I made something like $15,000,000 or so from my store but put probably $12,000,000 back into the community. You just need to not want to be greedy. And even after putting most of it back in I can still very comfortably run a private gym.

 

This in turn creates its own problem with me sending millions to fighters whose managers then need to do laundry to get said money from fighter. It's a vicious cycle.

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I was running a clothes company for a while when I was relatively new in the game and it was depressing to see pure laundry companies ahead of me in hype even when I was sponsoring fighters aggressively.

 

Is sponsoring fighters even worth it? Because I have knocked basically on EVERY door that made sense (owner is active, has fighters under sponsorship etc.) in order to get sponsorship going. The response so far has been damn sobering. I have certainly contacted over 30 different, active businesses. Basically everyone but the blatant laundry operations. I often offered to wear the apparal, sing their praises after fights. Basically everything to please the would-be sugar daddies.^^ So far very little has come of it.

 

Bottom line is: I, for the most part, don't even get a decline like: “Sorry bro, just proven fighters?” Nothing! Three frail sponsorship offers were all that came of contacting the first 14 companies. 14 companies, which according to the games rankings seemed worth a stab the most! And that is what I experience as somebody who knows the ropes with that stuff! Imagine how it is for new players with their 250 bucks!

It wasn’t like that one year ago. At least nowhere near as bad. Seriously, if that is reflective of the general attitude towards sponsorship on part of the companies (and given that I concentrated my efforts on those, that appeared to make the most sense: I am afraid, it is), then this game has a problem! That is exactly what I mean, when I say that the community has become complacent. Part of me shopping around in such fashion was also because I wanted to get a better idea about who is paying what. A little market research. Because right now the only solid sponsorship money for new fighters, and that only if you are lucky, is coming from Urban Fighter.

I run a gym that is concentrating on new players. So giving them some heads up on where to to get some sponsorship made sense to me. Right now my assessment would be: Don’t count on it.

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Is sponsoring fighters even worth it? Because I have knocked basically on EVERY door that made sense (owner is active, has fighters under sponsorship etc.) in order to get sponsorship going. The response so far has been damn sobering. I have certainly contacted over 30 different, active businesses. Basically everyone but the blatant laundry operations. I often offered to wear the apparal, sing their praises after fights. Basically everything to please the would-be sugar daddies.^^ So far very little has come of it.

 

Bottom line is: I, for the most part, don't even get a decline like: “Sorry bro, just proven fighters?” Nothing! Three frail sponsorship offers were all that came of contacting the first 14 companies. 14 companies, which according to the games rankings seemed worth a stab the most! And that is what I experience as somebody who knows the ropes with that stuff! Imagine how it is for new players with their 250 bucks!

 

It wasn’t like that one year ago. At least nowhere near as bad. Seriously, if that is reflective of the general attitude towards sponsorship on part of the companies (and given that I concentrated my efforts on those, that appeared to make the most sense: I am afraid, it is), then this game has a problem! That is exactly what I mean, when I say that the community has become complacent. Part of me shopping around in such fashion was also because I wanted to get a better idea about who is paying what. A little market research. Because right now the only solid sponsorship money for new fighters, and that only if you are lucky, is coming from Urban Fighter.

 

I run a gym that is concentrating on new players. So giving them some heads up on where to to get some sponsorship made sense to me. Right now my assessment would be: Don’t count on it.

 

I always sent sponsorships out. Sat around 400 concurrent at any one time. But i wasn't in it for the money, I wanted the hype, I wanted the best store.

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