JakeF Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hey guys, Straight to the point - I can't seem to understand the exact role of finish/control slider for the ground game. So we have: aggressor / counter - which should determine the number of action attempts of your fighter; Strike/sub / Advance position - which should determine the types of actions attempted by your fighter; Ground Strikes / Ground subs - this one is obvious so let's not pay big attention to it. I guess it takes the % left for strikes and subs and divides it to gnp and sub attempts; The question is - what is the exact role of Finish/Control slider? How is it included in the action attempts formulas since we don't see percentages for ground as we see them for Standup/Clinch? I have noticed that it affects the proportion of advance position attempts and strike/sub attempts as well. I remember one fight I had 100% stay on ground, with 50-60% finish and 90% advance position. So I thought that my fighter would attempt 9/10 advance positions and 1/10 subs, but it turned out that my fighter was again spamming sub attempts. That makes me think that Finish/Control also determines proportion strike(sub)/advance position on a higher hierarchical level than the strike(sub)/advance position slider. Now the more interesting questions: - Could someone tell me how to calculate my fighter's actions with those sliders? Usually I like to calculate on the base of 10 total action attempts, which actions(and how many of each) my fighter would attempt. For example if I wanna stay 100% on ground, and attempt 9 advance positions and 1 submission out of every 10 moves, what sliders should I set? - What would happen if I set 100% finish with 100% advance position? Or the opposite - 100% control with 100% strike(sub)? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablix Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 If you look at the ground hierarchy http://www.mmatycoon.info/images/a/a7/Ground_hierarchy.gif You can clearly see that "Finish" is the parent node of "Strike/Sub Vs Advance", while "Control" is a leaf node. It has a role similar to "Stall" in the clinch hierarchy. So if you go full aggression and full control you'll be very proactive in preventing your opponent from doing nothing (you subtract him actions and spend them in controlling him). So if you want to spend 100% of your actions in improving your position you must set "100% finish" and "100% advance position". About the other question (how to compute % of actions): you can't do it, the wiki states there's a certain level of common sense in the ground tactics, so if you don't set something to 0% or 100% you're not guaranteed that the the actual output will exactly match your slider percentage So, to sum up: - Full aggression and full finish: you are recklessly trying to improve position / strike / sub - Full aggression and full control: you are basically doing lay'n'pray (spending a lot of energy to force the referee to stand you up or to wait for the bell) - Full counter and full finish: you are waiting for an opening to sub/finish your opponent - Full counter and full control: don't really see any reason to do it, IMHO at least a certain level of aggression and full control is to be preferred 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted October 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hmm, nice explanation mate, learnt many new things but really i dont understand how to reduce submissions spamming if there really is a way to do so. As i said, i had a fight with 90% advance position and still my fighter made 3-4 sub attempts in a row. Ofc, need more fights to make tests but so far i had problems with this. Also what i get from this graphic - counter moves are not dependant on the lower sliders? For example if you set counter, you cant control what would your fighter attempt more - subs or advance positions? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablix Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Mmmm, I have no sure answer about that (never read it somewhere), but my guess is that the counter actions are affected by the "lower sliders", I think he didn't replicate it on the right branch of the tree otherwise the result would have been messy. But I also believe that since the ground game has some sort of "intelligence" behind it, it doesn't replicate exactly your sliders on a counter move, it just tries to follow them. Example: you are in full guard and your opponent makes a sloppy Triangle attempt. You have 90% subs. You could try a leg lock, but from my own (not that great, though) BJJ experience, it's much easier to pass the guard if someone does something wrong with a triangle. So I expect (random numbers just to give the idea) that with 90% subs in such situation your fighter will try to pass the guard 2/3 of the times and to do a counter submission 1/3 of the times. I'll never tire to say that this is just pure speculation, I have no evidence to prove it other than experience matured reading fights and using logic. Regarding your first issue (how to reduce the number of sub attempts)... I should have much more information to give a decent answer. On a general note I wouldn't focus on a specific moment but on the fight as a whole. You may be 90% advance position, but if you are in Mount it doesn't really make sense to improve: I know you can technically get your oppoenent's back, but if the engine replicates real life accurately... nobody would just risk to lose the mount to get your back, you usually end on someone's back if you start from a different position or if you counter an attempt to escape the mount. I think I never saw someone proactively giving up the mount to get someone's back. So basically once you progressively reach better positions (side control, mount and finally back) you'll focus more on subbing/striking since it makes much more sense. That's why in the wiki Mike states that there's common sense in the ground game. Also never forget that random is, of course, unpredictable and in the short term strange and seemingly senseless things could happen... so you could see 4 sub attempts from the full guard and then no attempts whatsoever for several minutes in a better position. So in the end you may end up with 10% of your actions as sub attempts, but distributed very badly. On such a rare situation (never occurred to me, honestly I think is technically possible but reasonably negligible) it wouldn't mean your sliders were wrong, but just you were terribly unlucky 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=832411 Here is the fight, check the last actions of Round 1. About the counter ground actions - could it be that if you are playing high counter and your fighter attempts a counter-move then all the importance goes to Strike(Sub) / Advance position slider (Only sub because there aren't counter strikes). It is said "Looks for counter subs and counter positions..." which makes me think that for counter action it takes the Sub / Advance position slider's setting to determine what your fighter is going to do for a counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itakebrides Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Also dont forget fighter IQ i the most important aspect of the ground game in my opinion.I feel it trumps sliders and even skill in certain aspects .I rather have a brown belt with a 140 IQ then a redbelt with a IQ of 80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Yeah, but let's forget about the random variables for a moment. I wanna know how to control the things that are in my hands, and in this case I can only change sliders. This discussion is very important, at least for me, because I see that the majority of managers use stand-up fighters, maybe it is because stand-up is more efficient or maybe because it's much much easier to understand and adjust with the percentages that are shown after you set sliders. I think that ground game needs a much deeper explanation than what it is written in the tycoon info page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablix Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 [...] I see that the majority of managers use stand-up fighters [...] maybe because it's much much easier to understand and adjust with the percentages that are shown after you set sliders IMHO, this is the reason. Easier to understand, you have a better perception of control and you already start on your feet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 But on the other side, if you learn to utilize the ground sliders, you can gain very high advantage over those managers, right? Guess I gotta make one 25yo with transitions and some GNP/subs and make tests. But what do you think? Counter actions go straight down the tree to Sub/Advance position slider or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablix Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 As stated before, I think they are influenced by the sliders, but also depends on the situation and fighter intelligence/experience. So unless you set 100% sub/advance you'll never have the counter move match exactly your slider percentage. You have to see your percentages more like guidelines, not as strict rules. Paradoxically they are much more realistic than the striking tactics, if you are the cornerman of a fighter you don't say him: "64,32% of your shots must be body punches", you just yell "work his flanks!" (actually I don't know if this expression is used in english, that's how I tried to translate it... but you get the meaning) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Excellent info here.....Alexander, you really should up your post count, you articulate things very well. Krum, thanks for bringing this up. The ground game is one of my biggest nemesis, this has helped me both offensively and defensively. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortstacker Posted September 16, 2020 Report Share Posted September 16, 2020 A bit of a resurrection here, Im trying to learn the ground game a bit better. If my fighter is a brown belt BJJ, but weak in other categories, and Im facing a strong boxer who also has decent wrestling, what is my best bet? Do I play the counter game and hope for a lucky takedown into a sub? Im outmatched it appears, but am hoping to sneak a win through some smart slider work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne95 Posted September 16, 2020 Report Share Posted September 16, 2020 A bit of a resurrection here, Im trying to learn the ground game a bit better. If my fighter is a brown belt BJJ, but weak in other categories, and Im facing a strong boxer who also has decent wrestling, what is my best bet? Do I play the counter game and hope for a lucky takedown into a sub? Im outmatched it appears, but am hoping to sneak a win through some smart slider work. Clinch, Pull guard. Counter sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortstacker Posted September 16, 2020 Report Share Posted September 16, 2020 Clinch, Pull guard. Counter sub. Just wanted to go step by step to make sure I am understanding. 1. Pull guard 2. Ground bottom I’m assuming 3. Stick position: back/none 4. Bottom position: high percentage counter 5. Bottom position: high percentage strike sub 6. Bottom position: high percentage ground subs What would make sense at the control/finisher slider? 60% finisher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne95 Posted September 17, 2020 Report Share Posted September 17, 2020 Stick position guard bottom. If he has decent wrestling no use controlling him 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortstacker Posted September 17, 2020 Report Share Posted September 17, 2020 Stick position guard bottom. If he has decent wrestling no use controlling him Understood, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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