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Hurt & Heal: Brazilian Edition


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#301 Note

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:36 AM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 13

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#302 jefframrod

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:42 AM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 11
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#303

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:15 PM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 9

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#304

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:28 PM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 7
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#305

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 02:02 PM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 5
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#306

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 02:03 PM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 3
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#307

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 03:13 PM

Jose Aldo - 14
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 1
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#308

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 04:54 PM

Jose Aldo - 15
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - 0

And our winner is:

Jose Aldo
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#309

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Everlast66 @ Sep 21 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And our winner is:

Jose Aldo

That flying double knee is so awsome.
But I think that Aldo is overhyped right now. He needs a win over Ben Henderson and hold the UFC lightweight title to be considered as a p4p top three. IMO.
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#310

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:17 PM

I don't think he's over-hyped at all. He's run through literally everyone they've put in front of him. The only reason he couldn't put Faber away was because Faber is a fucking freak, lol. Seriously, I remember him taking a head kick right to the jaw in their fight, and his head snaps back but beyond that it doesn't even seem to affect him (although I'm sure he was disoriented as fuck). His last two fights were against two of the most dominant guys at featherweight (Brown and Faber), and he completely outclassed both of them. If that doesn't tell you that this dude is skilled, I don't know what will.

I think a move up to lightweight would be great for him, as long as he can put Gamburyan away in their upcoming fight. The only problem with that is I think he'll be playing it safe because Gamburyan does have power as well, and if Aldo slips up he could get hit with a nasty counter. I don't think another dominant decision like the one against Faber would hold him back, either, but if he can't dominate Gamburyan I don't know if he should move up just yet. Gamburyan is a good test, though, because he did fight at lightweight in the past (although he didn't have the best of luck there, which is why he dropped down).
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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE (Everlast66 @ Sep 21 2010, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think he's over-hyped at all. He's run through literally everyone they've put in front of him. The only reason he couldn't put Faber away was because Faber is a fucking freak, lol. Seriously, I remember him taking a head kick right to the jaw in their fight, and his head snaps back but beyond that it doesn't even seem to affect him (although I'm sure he was disoriented as fuck). His last two fights were against two of the most dominant guys at featherweight (Brown and Faber), and he completely outclassed both of them. If that doesn't tell you that this dude is skilled, I don't know what will.

I think a move up to lightweight would be great for him, as long as he can put Gamburyan away in their upcoming fight. The only problem with that is I think he'll be playing it safe because Gamburyan does have power as well, and if Aldo slips up he could get hit with a nasty counter. I don't think another dominant decision like the one against Faber would hold him back, either, but if he can't dominate Gamburyan I don't know if he should move up just yet. Gamburyan is a good test, though, because he did fight at lightweight in the past (although he didn't have the best of luck there, which is why he dropped down).

But do you think that he deserves to be in the p4p top three list? He has only defended his title once and is about to fight Gamburyian who didn' do well in the UFC LW division but still managed to knock out the second best FW. Yeah sure, Aldo has outclassed every single opponent in the division but we don't know how good the FW division really is after the Gamburyian win over Brown. Aldo has to beat Gamburyian then Ben Henderson (as Dana stated once) then beat the current UFC LW champion to be considered a top p4p monster.

I'm not saying that Aldo isn't fantastic, all I'm saying is that we can't rush and call him a p4p monster after just one title defense in a questionable division. Remember what was said about Machida after he KO'd Rashad? He was supposed to be the unbeatable mma god but people think differently about him now. Let's not make the same mistake with Aldo.
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#312

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:36 PM

I don't think he deserves to be in the top three pound-for-pound yet, but yet is the key word. He's definitely headed there, and it's going to take either some great luck or some great skill for one of his opponent's to knock him off of that path.

I also don't think that Gamburyan knocking out Brown really makes the whole division questionable, it just makes Brown questionable, and I don't mean that we have to question his earlier dominance, either, we just have to question whether or not this is the same, a better, or a worse Brown than we've seen in the past. I personally think that losing to Aldo really took its toll on him, both physically and mentally, and that we're just seeing a lesser Brown now.

In my opinion, Machida and Aldo are (and were) in completely different situations. Compare their UFC/WEC records:
Aldo: Wins - 4 TKOs, 2 KOs, 1 Decision / Losses - None
Machida: Wins - 2 KOs, 1 Submission, 5 Decisions / Losses - 1 KO

Overall (not just UFC/WEC) Machida wins mostly by decision, and Aldo wins mostly by (T)KO. In other words, Aldo isn't a Zuffa-created myth (they love to say so-and-so has power in their hands just to create hype), he's the real deal.
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#313

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:27 PM

Machida does win by decision but that doesn't mean he wasn't up there with the best at that time. His wins were very one sided, he'd out strike and out grapple his opponents. Then along came Shogun with the perfect gameplan and beat him twice. I think the same will happen to Aldo, somebodys gonna come and beat him with the perfect gameplan.

Even after Machida's losses to Shogun, I think he'll make another run for the title. I don't see anybody else beating him.
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#314

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Everlast66 @ Sep 21 2010, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think he deserves to be in the top three pound-for-pound yet, but yet is the key word. He's definitely headed there, and it's going to take either some great luck or some great skill for one of his opponent's to knock him off of that path.

I also don't think that Gamburyan knocking out Brown really makes the whole division questionable, it just makes Brown questionable, and I don't mean that we have to question his earlier dominance, either, we just have to question whether or not this is the same, a better, or a worse Brown than we've seen in the past. I personally think that losing to Aldo really took its toll on him, both physically and mentally, and that we're just seeing a lesser Brown now.

In my opinion, Machida and Aldo are (and were) in completely different situations. Compare their UFC/WEC records:
Aldo: Wins - 4 TKOs, 2 KOs, 1 Decision / Losses - None
Machida: Wins - 2 KOs, 1 Submission, 5 Decisions / Losses - 1 KO

Overall (not just UFC/WEC) Machida wins mostly by decision, and Aldo wins mostly by (T)KO. In other words, Aldo isn't a Zuffa-created myth (they love to say so-and-so has power in their hands just to create hype), he's the real deal.

I agree. Jose Aldo is very good, but he can't be considered p4p yet.

Though regarding the Machida comparison, you can't go just by how they win their fights. I like to look at the competition, and Machida has this one in the bag by far. He has one of the most impressive records in the UFC. Machida has beaten Rich Franklin, BJ Penn, Stephan Bonnar, Sokoudjou, Tito Ortiz, Thiago Silva, Rashad Evans, and (albeit questionably) Shogun Rua. Before he lost, I say that easily qualifies a top 5 p4p in the world. He looked pretty unstoppable. Jose Aldo on the other hand has what...2 notable wins? I agree that he is very good, but I like to look at their history as well.

Plus Machida drinks his own piss, that's p4p material to me. I wouldn't call him a Zuffa created myth, since...he is very good. Besides, WEC is owned by Zuffa too, so you could make the same argument that they build up Aldo in that way too.
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#315

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:48 PM

Rich Franklin: mostly fights at middleweight.
BJ Penn: mostly fights at lightweight (and Lyoto couldn't even stop him with a 30 lbs weight advantage - and Penn was even chubby, not muscular)
Stephan Bonnar: well-known for losing to Forrest and...That's about it.
Sokoudjou: well-known for being a big prospect that has yet to live up to his potential (I'm shocked he's only 26 - I thought he was at least five years older).
Tito Ortiz: since 2006 he's fought once per year - he had his time, but he isn't a top contender anymore, and beating him isn't a big deal right now (and it was barely a big deal back in 2008).
Thiago Silva: take your own advice and look at his competition during his undefeated streak. Perfect example of over-hyped right here.
Rashad Evans: really nothing to say about this one, it's the most legitimate example.

So, beating smaller guys (BJ for sure, Franklin not so much, but still) and guys who are mostly hype (Bonnar/Sokoudjou/Silva/Ortiz at the time) makes for a better record? The only reason those wins are notable is because those guys have fought in the UFC, and therefore have more exposure. That doesn't mean they're any more skilled than the guys Aldo has faced. It's not like there are many "notable" featherweights for him to beat on (because the lighter guys don't get the same exposure), anyway, but Cub Swanson (the dude who gets double-kneed) and Jonathan Brookins, for example, are two very skilled young fighters.

As for the "perfect gameplan" theory, in the first fight that might have been true, but in the second it was completely different. Shogun went out there with controlled aggression, picking his spots but at the same time once he decided to go for it he went all in. Almost every big strike or combo he threw was looking for the KO.

As for someone beating Aldo with a "perfect gameplan", Aldo is a really well-rounded guy. His BJJ is great, he has great takedown defense, and his striking is great. I don't really think there is a "perfect gameplan" to counter his style, like there was for Machida's, because his style isn't as static.
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#316

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE
Rich Franklin: mostly fights at middleweight.
BJ Penn: mostly fights at lightweight (and Lyoto couldn't even stop him with a 30 lbs weight advantage - and Penn was even chubby, not muscular)
Stephan Bonnar: well-known for losing to Forrest and...That's about it.
Sokoudjou: well-known for being a big prospect that has yet to live up to his potential (I'm shocked he's only 26 - I thought he was at least five years older).
Tito Ortiz: since 2006 he's fought once per year - he had his time, but he isn't a top contender anymore, and beating him isn't a big deal right now (and it was barely a big deal back in 2008).
Thiago Silva: take your own advice and look at his competition during his undefeated streak. Perfect example of over-hyped right here.
Rashad Evans: really nothing to say about this one, it's the most legitimate example.


BJ Penn: Weight isn't everything, as many fighters can attest to. While it is not as impressive since he weighs a lot more, its still BJ Penn.
Stephan Bonnar: Middle of the road kinda Light Heavyweight.
Sokoudjou: Had just knocked out both Lil' Nog and Ricardo Arona before he lost to Machida. Not overhyped at the time, just didn't live up to potential later on.
Tito Ortiz: Still dangerous at the time, and should have beaten Rashad Evans the match before...if he didn't screw himself by disobeying the referee.
Thiago Silva: Very early to call him overhyped. He crushed the competition before Machida, and should have beaten Rashad Evans if he wasn't hurt so badly at the time. Still a top ten light heavyweight in the UFC when healthy. Machida made him look silly.
Rashad Evans: Number one contender at the moment.
Shogun Rua: Controversial fight, though all Shogun really did was land tons of leg kicks. While I would have ruled in favor of Shogun, I can see why the judges went with Machida on the fight. It could have easily gone both ways...probably should have been a split decision or a draw.

All of these guys were a legitimate threat at the time they fought Machida. Besides, this is still MMA...anything could have happened. They all had a fighter's chance against Machida, though none succeeded until Shogun knocked him out.

QUOTE
So, beating smaller guys (BJ for sure, Franklin not so much, but still) and guys who are mostly hype (Bonnar/Sokoudjou/Silva/Ortiz at the time) makes for a better record? The only reason those wins are notable is because those guys have fought in the UFC, and therefore have more exposure. That doesn't mean they're any more skilled than the guys Aldo has faced. It's not like there are many "notable" featherweights for him to beat on (because the lighter guys don't get the same exposure), anyway, but Cub Swanson (the dude who gets double-kneed) and Jonathan Brookins, for example, are two very skilled young fighters.


Jose Aldo has certainly not faced the same level of competition, at least compared to Machida. Cub Swanson lost to Jens Pulver in 2007, who has literally won once in his last nine fights. That one win was against Swanson. Besides, the guy just lost at WEC 50. Before Aldo can even be considered close to Machida p4p he needs to win a few more big fights...and he's well on his way with wins over Faber and Brown. Brookins is not that good either...just a journeyman level fighter.

QUOTE
As for the "perfect gameplan" theory, in the first fight that might have been true, but in the second it was completely different. Shogun went out there with controlled aggression, picking his spots but at the same time once he decided to go for it he went all in. Almost every big strike or combo he threw was looking for the KO.


Everyone has a weakness, though it was only one fight. Anyone can be caught with a punch, no matter how good they are. Though you have to remember, Shogun was long considered the best Light Heavyweight in the world before he got hurt. It hardly hurts someone's résumé to be defeated by a healthy and still young Shogun Rua...a top p4p fighter in his own right when healthy.

QUOTE
As for someone beating Aldo with a "perfect gameplan", Aldo is a really well-rounded guy. His BJJ is great, he has great takedown defense, and his striking is great. I don't really think there is a "perfect gameplan" to counter his style, like there was for Machida's, because his style isn't as static.


You can easily say that about anyone...until they lose. All it takes is one good punch to knock Aldo out cold, as it does with anyone. That's why MMA is so great, no one is invincible. There will always be someone who can eventually counter your style, or catch you with a nice punch or kick to the face. Still, I believe Machida's record is far more impressive than Jose Aldo's.
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#317

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:34 PM

QUOTE (DeathZero @ Sep 21 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
BJ Penn: Weight isn't everything, as many fighters can attest to. While it is not as impressive since he weighs a lot more, its still BJ Penn.
Stephan Bonnar: Middle of the road kinda Light Heavyweight.
Sokoudjou: Had just knocked out both Lil' Nog and Ricardo Arona before he lost to Machida. Not overhyped at the time, just didn't live up to potential later on.
Tito Ortiz: Still dangerous at the time, and should have beaten Rashad Evans the match before...if he didn't screw himself by disobeying the referee.
Thiago Silva: Very early to call him overhyped. He crushed the competition before Machida, and should have beaten Rashad Evans if he wasn't hurt so badly at the time. Still a top ten light heavyweight in the UFC when healthy. Machida made him look silly.
Rashad Evans: Number one contender at the moment.
Shogun Rua: Controversial fight, though all Shogun really did was land tons of leg kicks. While I would have ruled in favor of Shogun, I can see why the judges went with Machida on the fight. It could have easily gone both ways...probably should have been a split decision or a draw.


Weight doesn't matter as much because of skill. If a smaller guy is more skilled than a larger guy, the smaller guy evens it up. However, if the two are fairly equally experienced then the edge goes to the person who is larger. Having more weight to throw around isn't a problem as long as your cardio isn't shit.

"It's still BJ Penn"? I'm a big Penn fan, but a guy who fights at 155 who puts on weight to get up to 191 going against a guy who fights at 205 who probably just didn't cut weight and came in at 220 is not a good match-up for the former, no matter who they are. You ever wonder why BJ doesn't fight at middleweight, or light heavyweight, and generally does worse at welterweight than he does lightweight?

The only reason Bonnar isn't the fired type of light heavyweight is because of Bonnar v Griffin I.

Those two KOs were Sokoudjou showing his potential. The guy was only 4-1 at that point, while Machida was 12-0. I'm not saying the match shouldn't have happened (after all Sokoudjou had just beaten Arona and Little Nog), but I'm not at all surprised that Machida beat him.

At the time of the Evan's fight, Tito's last fight was seven months ago. His fight with Machida was ten months after that.

This was the plan: since Rampage was on a winning streak, they'd give him Evans and then a title shot. However, a bunch of things got in the way of the match happening, until finally a ring-rusted Rampage came back and fought Rashad, losing the fight, screwing up the original plan. I mean, does Rashad really deserve to be number one contender of losing to Machida, then beating Thiago Silva and a Rampage that hadn't fought in over a year? No, but Rampage had been told beforehand that if he beat Rashad he'd get a title shot, which Rashad got wind of, and then forced Dana to give him the same deal.

You don't have to justify Shogun at all, but you do have to acknowledge that there was a rematch which Shogun ended in the first round, so beating him the first time goes way down in value.

I will admit that some of these are impressive, but because you've added some others that I don't think are at all it just diminishes the whole list.

QUOTE (DeathZero @ Sep 21 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Jose Aldo has certainly not faced the same level of competition, at least compared to Machida. Cub Swanson lost to Jens Pulver in 2007, who has literally won once in his last nine fights. That one win was against Swanson. Besides, the guy just lost at WEC 50. Before Aldo can even be considered close to Machida p4p he needs to win a few more big fights...and he's well on his way with wins over Faber and Brown. Brookins is not that good either...just a journeyman level fighter.


Pulver's win over Swanson put him at 22-8-1 with wins over guys like BJ Penn and Dennis Hallman. And yeah, Swanson lost to Chad Mendes, a young beast who the WEC is building up right now.

Brookins isn't that good? He's done arguably the best against Aldo in the WEC (Faber actually lasted, but he got completely owned that entire fight). And, he's only 24 (the same age as Aldo). Which brings me to another point - these guys are a lot younger than Machida. They have a lot more room to develop, while Machida is probably nearing/at/closing up his peak (time will tell).

QUOTE (DeathZero @ Sep 21 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone has a weakness, though it was only one fight. Anyone can be caught with a punch, no matter how good they are. Though you have to remember, Shogun was long considered the best Light Heavyweight in the world before he got hurt. It hardly hurts someone's résumé to be defeated by a healthy and still young Shogun Rua...a top p4p fighter in his own right when healthy.


I definitely agree that Shogun is a great fighter. I don't really know where you're going with this, though. I was referring to Sugar's post, because I don't really think it was a perfect gameplan that truly beat Machida, and wasn't trying to take anything away from either fighter for their performance's in the fights.

QUOTE (DeathZero @ Sep 21 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You can easily say that about anyone...until they lose. All it takes is one good punch to knock Aldo out cold, as it does with anyone. That's why MMA is so great, no one is invincible. There will always be someone who can eventually counter your style, or catch you with a nice punch or kick to the face. Still, I believe Machida's record is far more impressive than Jose Aldo's.


I know that that's all it takes, and I'm sure he does too. Didn't I just say something about how I expect him to be cautious against Gamburyan? I'm not trying to say that Aldo is going to go on through his career and be undefeated from this point on, I'm just saying he has all of the tools necessary to be great, and he shows them in every one of his fights.

What I'm trying to say is that Aldo doesn't really have one singular style, as opposed to Machida who basically just does his "elusive" routine. From what I've seen he mixes up his strikes all of the time (within fights and from fight to fight), and he has very technical grappling skills that I think are going to give everyone trouble, especially once the fight actually gets to the ground. Two of the best wrestlers in the division are Brown and Faber, and he had no problem with either of them. I do think that he might have some trouble with the larger wrestlers at lightweight (if he does go to the UFC, I'd really love to see how him against Edgar or Maynard would go), but we'll have to actually see when the time comes, if it does.
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#318

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Everlast66 @ Sep 21 2010, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Weight doesn't matter as much because of skill. If a smaller guy is more skilled than a larger guy, the smaller guy evens it up. However, if the two are fairly equally experienced then the edge goes to the person who is larger. Having more weight to throw around isn't a problem as long as your cardio isn't shit.



The only time weight won't play a factor is if the bigger guy really knows nothing in a certain form of fighting (Royce vs. Akebono) but if there are two top of the line pro's going against each other and both very skilled weight/strength will play a big part cause they are used to getting hit harder and can muscle out of a lot....as example i was just rolling with two people who would be considered HW (260 and 270) and i'm only 195 and while i know a lot more than they do (not much as i'm only a 3rd stripe white belt in BJJ) and was never in danger of being tapped i couldn't do much offensively due to weight and strength working WAAAAAAY against me cause if i saw an opening it was pretty easy for them to muscle out before i could really lock it up.

Granted that my weight difference here (-70 lbs) would be a lot more than most people fighting each other but just an example
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