Fedor Emelinenko: Why he's your favorite fighter's favorite fighter...

[Guest]

A bit offtopic, sorry, but check out this awesome Fedor video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t32gLHPFZzw

[Guest]

I don't think your MMATycoon analogy really compares Invictus, but I'm not going to argue about that again. Fedor is a good fighter, without Lesnar very likely the best. P4p I don't think he deserves the ranking a lot of people give him. The heavyweight division has been fairly weak compared to other divisions for very long. HW division never looked better than it does now, and I think there are fighters who have the potential to beat Fedor.

[iloveme8]

did you think carwin was a suitable opponent when he was supposed to fight lesnar? because carwin basically did the same thing....he only beat one guy in gonzaga. carwin and rogers basically did the same thing, but somehow it seems like carwin is believed to be so much more legit than rogers.

 

Carwin is a hell of a lot better than Rogers. As for more legit? That might be debatable. But Carwin's got a brown and I don't think Rogers even has a purple.

[Guest]

I don't think your MMATycoon analogy really compares Invictus, but I'm not going to argue about that again. Fedor is a good fighter, without Lesnar very likely the best. P4p I don't think he deserves the ranking a lot of people give him. The heavyweight division has been fairly weak compared to other divisions for very long. HW division never looked better than it does now, and I think there are fighters who have the potential to beat Fedor.

 

I think this is the major reason why I likely would not rank Fedor the best p4p fighter, and a lot of Fedor fans will ever admit or refuse to believe that last statement.

Im not the biggest Fedor fan, but i enjoy watching him fight, and i give him his props, he has beaten a bunch of good to great fighters, but unfortunately wit the Lesnar health issues, and Fedor/Randy not happening, and UFC and Fedor's Management failing to reach a median, as great as fedor will be when he hangs it up, there will be that question looming over him asking, would he have been able to beat X fighter, or Y fighter ( that also goes with anyone that makes a run at the HW division especially if Brock or for example JDS start clearing out the UFC HW division is if they couldve beat Fedor in a fight) The saddest part of all this is we may never see these guys fight each other, and if we do it may be one or the other being out of their prime making the fight still a what if scenario.

 

 

 

[Guest]

GSP, Anderson Silva, and Penn are not household names. I heard more people (and casuals at that) talking about Fedor after the fight with Rogers than I did people discussing GSP after UFC 100.

 

I know its not about legacy because Fedor has gone on record to state so himself, it's just a job. You cannot apply the typical American/Dana White logic on this man. He is not American. He is Russian. It's a completely different mentality. This is a guy that under brutal GNP, swinging for the KO, or while taking the most brutal slam in MMA history, shows no facial expression. Strikeforce/M-1 Fedor vs. Rogers had better ratings in Russia than any UFC event has had in the U.S. so it's a lot more than a niche organization with real appeal only to MMA geeks (M-1 also set up those television deals, not Strikeforce). They get him incredible deals. Every blogger that's analyzed the deal they got him with Affliction has called it the most lucrative offer they've seen in the sport.

 

You call his management horrific, but state no reason for it. After UFC first brought Pride, they offered Fedor a contract. He publicly scoffed at it. The reason he shot down their initial offers were for the following reasons: 1) Not allowed to compete in Sambo, 2) The UFC Championship clause that makes the contract length indefinite while you're the champion, and 3) If he lost, they could just fire him. - These are things he stated himself, not just his management. Fedor doesn't handpick his opponents. M-1 even had a fucking survey on Sherdog for which free agent people wanted see him fight after Barnett got busted. He fought Rogers because that was who the fans voted for.

 

No, I'm a fan of both Fedor and the UFC that has read enough on the subject. I never said Dana had to release them. Couture bitched and moaned for a fight with Fedor. Once his contract began to expire this last time, he opted to resign with the UFC prior to his fight with Nog, after Fedor was already signed to Strikeforce. Simply finish the contract and don't re-sign if it's a fight they really want as much as they claim to. Also, quantity is not the same as quality.

 

I'm fairly certain 6 UFC Championships and 1 Hall of Fame award is worth something. Also, please keep in mind that no one in UFC history has successfully defended the Heavyweight Championship more than Tim Sylvia. Even the legendary Randy Couture is just tied with him, at 3. Against former UFC Champions, Fedor holds a record of 7-0. No one in UFC itself can even claim that.

 

I never said the UFC would lose momentum without him. I often find that's a statement many often make to validate the decision despite no one ever mentioning it. Anything that is sure-fire and obvious gain is always more important that something you can't lose. By the time Dana offered him the contract he originally wanted, it was too late because he had already signed to M-1. Fedor's management has nothing to do with Dana's bad timing and his perception of M-1 as just some crazy Russians.

 

I'll break this down Tycoon style:

 

Your 18 year old fighter becomes the #1 HW in the game between 20-21. He is now 27. He has never, ever fallen from that spot and has bounced between the top 3 spots during that time. You purchase Russian Mob Fighting, located in St. Petes and get it out of the Top 10 and into the Top 5. Shortly afterward, the org your fighter is in closes, which had been #1 in the game. The top bidder and new #1 org, Synchronicity offers you a deal that find to be terrible, but it's their standard contract.

 

Unhappy, you sign him to a 5 fight deal with your own org instead, seeing the chance to really elevate your org. Frustrated at your rejection, Franky (Syn's owner) tells you off on the forums, turning nearly everyone against you because he runs the most popular org in the game and to many people, St. Petes sucks and Syn has the higher ranked opposition now with your former employer closing down. You manage to work out some deals with CFC to get some of their fighters to face you, including the #2 ranked HW (Sherdog had Arlovski at #2 prior to the fight) which you win.

 

After two fights, that org closes and The Syndicate nabs most of them. Synchronicity tells you they want your fighter and sends you a message detailing the offer which contains everything you wanted before. They want him right now, screw your plans, and other 3 fights. In the meantime, you tell him to keep the contract discussions private, not wanting to have your rep tarnished again and even further than before. As a manager, this is what you wanted, but as an org owner, you know it would cripple you. Your fighter is a major focal point of your org.

 

Believing Syn shouldn't be able to take advantage of the fact that you're both org owner and manager, you demand compensation for your org. Franky tells you he'll let you wear the clothing that you paid for with your org's logo and nothing more. He will compromise nothing else. You tell him you don't really like the deal, but you'll think about it. Irate, Franky trashes the hell out of you on the forums again, even spreading what you to believe are lies about the offer, but no one believes you from you already tarnished rep. Wanting to overthrow Synchronicity, Adam Knight (Syndicate's owner) who treats you well, offers you the same side-deal you had with CFC.

 

Do you join Synchronicity or take The Syndicate's side-deal?

 

 

GSP, A. Silva, Penn not household names? Dude, most of the new casual fans may not have known Jens, BJ, Royce and anyone pre TUF, but any hardcore mma fans will tell you who they are lol. So In a way your correct that they are not household names to casual/new fans. But your crazy or ignorant if you think they are not household names to a true MMA fan. I guess you hang out with a lot of people that are new to mma and consider Bonner and Griffin as household names lol.

 

Sylvia may have 3 defenses like Randy , but he himself fell to Randy by complete beatdown lol. And Randy's resume is i would say a tad better than Sylvia's.

 

9-24

combined records of Fedor's opponents dating back to Zuluzinho. after fighting Fedor.

aside from rogers who hasnt fought anyone after his fight with Fedor.

 

so either Fedor is the cause for their lack of wins after his fights with them or They were fighting lesser quality fighters, or they are past their prime.

 

Quantity does not equal Quality i agree with you on that, but really how many Quality HW's do you have right now that is non UFC contracted that you want to see Fedor fight? Im not sure if you see a trend, but UFC is brininging in, or is trying to bring in the best HW's available and sooner or later anyone that is worth anything will be offered UFC contracts.

 

And im not even gonna read your Tycoon comparison lol just because anyone that will compare Real life to a game needs help. seriously.

[djohn]

Should of read whole post. Had already been made fun of. Move along

[Guest]

I think anyone who believes Fedor is as recognized or more recognized than the GSPs, Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, Chuck Liddell's are outright delusional.

 

To the very, very, very few casual fans who know who Fedor is, they know him as "that Russian guy that knocked out that big black guy. That was cool."

[iloveme8]

I think Fedor's name value extends a bit more than that. I would say Chuck and Tito are the most known, but Fedor's in that next tier.

[Guest]

I think anyone who believes Fedor is as recognized or more recognized than the GSPs, Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, Chuck Liddell's are outright delusional.

 

To the very, very, very few casual fans who know who Fedor is, they know him as "that Russian guy that knocked out that big black guy. That was cool."

 

Not to ruin the discussion but the only MMA guy I knew of was Fedor for a while, who I looked up on Youtube because he seemed pretty unstoppable from what I heard. Then Couture, Liddel and a bunch of other guys in UFC. My interest in MMA was moderate until I started playing this game :shrug:

 

Im probably far from a normal fan though. Plus Im from the UK, that might make a difference...?

 

As for Fedor being the best, Im in no position to say. I do think hes an awesome fighter and anyone would have trouble with him. I want to see these fights happen and if a jerk like Dana White is the cause for them not (or Fedors side in the interests in fairness) then they should be ashamed because it appears to be what EVERYONE wants to happen.

 

On the upside for all involved, the hype around them would be insane if a press release went out saying a UFC Fighter vs Fedor was going to be booked. A fight like that would make mad money.

[Guest]

The difference is that Fedor hasn't existed on North American television until recently.

 

In the meantime, the UFC brand fighters are consistently being put on TV, PPV and major ad campaigns by the fastest growing sport body on the continent.

[Guest]

Carwin is a hell of a lot better than Rogers. As for more legit? That might be debatable. But Carwin's got a brown and I don't think Rogers even has a purple.

 

except you have no real evidence of carwin being a "hell of a lot better" right? break it down for me...tell me what makes him better. he knocked out gonzaga after getting nearly beaten unconscious and then taken down. at least brett rogers managed to take out arlovski while not being touched at all. arlovski was also higher ranked than gonzaga was. the point is...you really dont know who is better. people made up this crazy idea that carwin is somehow more skilled and legit because he fights in the ufc. it isnt true at all. carwin and rogers have basically had the same exact career. they beat up some bums for awhile, then they got a mild step up in competition, and they they both beat two respected opponents. i dont care about their belt levels at all. have you seen carwins ground game? i havent seen much of it. we have no idea how to really judge his ground skills. i mean rashad evans just got his black belt out of nowhere the other day. i didnt even know rashad trained in BJJ honestly. does that make him some mean submission artist? of course it doesnt. rashad has never even attempted a submission in the ufc. your credentials mean nothing if you dont display them.

[iloveme8]

I don't want to try and convince you Carwin's better. That's just what I think. I think he's got almost as much KO power as Rogers and proven proficiency on the ground. It's not a UFC bias or anything like that, I promise you.

[Guest]

i believe you, but when was his ground game proven?

[Guest]

GSP, A. Silva, Penn not household names? Dude, most of the new casual fans may not have known Jens, BJ, Royce and anyone pre TUF, but any hardcore mma fans will tell you who they are lol. So In a way your correct that they are not household names to casual/new fans. But your crazy or ignorant if you think they are not household names to a true MMA fan.

A household name and a name known to MMA fans are completely different things.

 

Sylvia may have 3 defenses like Randy , but he himself fell to Randy by complete beatdown lol. And Randy's resume is i would say a tad better than Sylvia's.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Sylvia sucks for losing to Fedor, Nog, Couture, Arlovski, and Mir but Couture is awesome despite losing to Nogueira, Lesnar, Liddell 2x, Belfort, Rodriguez, Barnett, V. Overeem, Illoukhine, and Inoue.

 

Quantity does not equal Quality i agree with you on that, but really how many

...

 

9-24

combined records of Fedor's opponents dating back to Zuluzinho. after fighting Fedor.

anyone that will compare Real life to a game needs help. seriously.

Combined record... That seems so... familiar.

 

The difference is that Fedor hasn't existed on North American television until recently.

 

In the meantime, the UFC brand fighters are consistently being put on TV, PPV and major ad campaigns by the fastest growing sport body on the continent.

Fedor may not have been on North American television until recently, but I know people that cannot stand MMA, haven't been interested in it, don't even know who Liddell is, and now can't wait to see Fedor fight again. He benefitted a lot by being on CBS as opposed to a PPV or cable channel. Fedor/Rogers was the 8th most watched fight ever. The show also had better ratings than UFC 105, headlined by Couture himself.

 

In the wake of the biggest UFC event of all-time, all the sports shows talked about was Lesnar. No one discussed GSP. Mir wasn't even mentioned by name despite being the guy who got his ass kicked in that same fight. It was just Lesnar and Dana by name. The UFC brand is on television more, but guys like Silva, GSP, and Penn endears himself to hardcore fans and bloggers. They draw in events with good undercards and co-main events, but on their own? Not so much. Penn/Stevenson had a buyrate just over 200K and Penn/Sherk couldn't hit 500K despite having Tito and (I know he's not a big draw for the UFC but some like to claim he is so yeah...) Wandy. Anderson/Franklin II and Anderson/Hendo were under 350K and Anderson/Cote just hit 300K.

 

I don't want to try and convince you Carwin's better. That's just what I think. I think he's got almost as much KO power as Rogers and proven proficiency on the ground.

Yeah, he has a proven proficiency against... Neil Wain, Rex Richards, Chris Guillen, Jay McCown, Casey Jackson, and Carlton Jones. Wow, that's awesome. Totally better than not just surviving but worrying people with an impressive offense against the best ground fighter in the history of the Heavyweight division, if not the entire sport.

[Guest]

A household name and a name known to MMA fans are completely different things.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know. Sylvia sucks for losing to Fedor, Nog, Couture, Arlovski, and Mir but Couture is awesome despite losing to Nogueira, Lesnar, Liddell 2x, Belfort, Rodriguez, Barnett, V. Overeem, Illoukhine, and Inoue.

 

...

 

Combined record... That seems so... familiar.

 

Fedor may not have been on North American television until recently, but I know people that cannot stand MMA, haven't been interested in it, don't even know who Liddell is, and now can't wait to see Fedor fight again. He benefitted a lot by being on CBS as opposed to a PPV or cable channel. Fedor/Rogers was the 8th most watched fight ever. The show also had better ratings than UFC 105, headlined by Couture himself.

 

In the wake of the biggest UFC event of all-time, all the sports shows talked about was Lesnar. No one discussed GSP. Mir wasn't even mentioned by name despite being the guy who got his ass kicked in that same fight. It was just Lesnar and Dana by name. The UFC brand is on television more, but guys like Silva, GSP, and Penn endears himself to hardcore fans and bloggers. They draw in events with good undercards and co-main events, but on their own? Not so much. Penn/Stevenson had a buyrate just over 200K and Penn/Sherk couldn't hit 500K despite having Tito and (I know he's not a big draw for the UFC but some like to claim he is so yeah...) Wandy. Anderson/Franklin II and Anderson/Hendo were under 350K and Anderson/Cote just hit 300K.

 

Yeah, he has a proven proficiency against... Neil Wain, Rex Richards, Chris Guillen, Jay McCown, Casey Jackson, and Carlton Jones. Wow, that's awesome. Totally better than not just surviving but worrying people with an impressive offense against the best ground fighter in the history of the Heavyweight division, if not the entire sport.

 

 

ok so you consider fedor a household name because your friends know him and not penn, gsp, and a. silva. well then your buddies are not mma fans, they are just guys you prolly show fedor fights too lol.

 

so nog has lost to mir by stoppage, the only time he was stopped right? does that make mir better? lol.. sorry fact is fact, sylvia outside AA, doesnt have much on his resume to compete with randy's. hell brocks career as young as it is has already fought tougher guys lol.

 

and yes the combined record of his opponents, the best you can counter with is "that sounds familiar" lol.. man your counter is as bad as cash is kings trolling.

 

those ppv numbers you have lol is kinda misleading. with the internet and sopcast and streams, a lot more people are choosing to watch it for free than to pay for it lol. so really those numbers to me dont matter and wont gauge how "popular" fighters are or how big a draw they are. take away the internet then no other promotion will beat out the ufc in ppv buys lol. sorry to burst your bubble there buddy. if the arena's are packed. that kinda shows you what type of attraction those fighters are.

 

but dont worry ill still wear the #1 Invictus fan cap that manny gave me lol.

 

 

[Guest]

ok so you consider fedor a household name because your friends know him and not penn, gsp, and a. silva. well then your buddies are not mma fans, they are just guys you prolly show fedor fights too lol.

Yeah, just because of that. I made no mention that in his Strikeforce debut, he pulled better ratings than a UFC card with a Randy Couture main event and had the 8th most watched fight in MMA history. I didn't mention that at all.

 

so nog has lost to mir by stoppage, the only time he was stopped right? does that make mir better?

Considering you asked, no, it does not. Additionally, I'll let the legendary Minotauro explain this himself. It's easier.

 

"I only drop out of a fight when it’s totally impossible to fight, when I cannot even walk. Anyone who trains with me knows how I am. I never decline a fight invitation. In this fight against Mir, I had a serious staphylococcus infection on my elbow 10 days before the fight and stayed almost five days in the hospital taking antibiotics. On the day I finally recovered and returned to training, three days before the flight, I had a serious knee injury (meniscus)."

- Nogueira (Only AFTER being asked, "What exactly happened to you before the fight and why didn’t you drop out?")

 

Now, for Nogueira's manager:

 

"There's a big difference between making excuses and giving the reason why, and just to prove that Nogueira is not making excuses, he wants his next fight to be against Mir, and he wants to fight him in December."

- Ed Soares (After getting off the phone with Big Nog)

 

sylvia outside AA, doesnt have much on his resume to compete with randy's. hell brocks career as young as it is has already fought tougher guys lol.

Sylvia fought whomever was put in front of him. In the Heavyweight division of MMA, his only losses are to PRIDE and UFC Heavyweight Champions. The bout with Mercer was at Super Heavyweight and showed up like a total fat ass at 310.6

 

and yes the combined record of his opponents, the best you can counter with is "that sounds familiar" lol..

I made that counter because I wondered just whether or not the significance would be lost on you and of course it was! Combined record isn't a stat that any respected MMA columnist or reporter uses. It is a feature that belongs to this MMA game and thus, you attempted to use it as a legit argument despite just saying game/real life MMA comparisons are silly.

 

those ppv numbers you have lol is kinda misleading. with the internet and sopcast and streams, a lot more people are choosing to watch it for free than to pay for it lol. so really those numbers to me dont matter and wont gauge how "popular" fighters are or how big a draw they are.

It's not misleading at all. A draw is someone that can bring in a paying crowd to make that promotion money, measured not just by live gates, but also PPV buyrates.

[iloveme8]

i believe you, but when was his ground game proven?

 

Simply on the basis of five sub victories. You can call them cans, but whatever.

 

Yeah, he has a proven proficiency against... Neil Wain, Rex Richards, Chris Guillen, Jay McCown, Casey Jackson, and Carlton Jones. Wow, that's awesome. Totally better than not just surviving but worrying people with an impressive offense against the best ground fighter in the history of the Heavyweight division, if not the entire sport.

 

It's not particularly fair for you to cite Rogers' fight vs. Fedor as an example of why he's better when Carwin has never been given that kind of fight. I think Carwin wouldn't have any trouble going into the second round with Fedor and mounting a serious offense. Frankly, I don't know how you can just crap on a guy who's longest fight ever was two minutes, eleven seconds. If you want to say Rogers' victory over Arlovski was more impressive than Carwin's over Gonzaga, go ahead, that's your opinion. I'm not going to try and convince you why Carwin is better, because a loss to Fedor doesn't really count as a loss in my mind, so their resumes appear very similar to me. Nevertheless, I don't think Carwin gets enough credit and I think he'll prove what he is against Mir (who I believe to be overrated).

[Guest]

MMA is interesting, in that people give fighters "credit" for things they haven't done. That's extremely unusual in pro sports. Carwin is a good example. He gets a level of hype that really exceeds his accomplishments.

 

From September '05 to September '07, Ben Rothwell enjoyed a 13-fight winning streak, with 11 finishes (9 of them in the first round). He had two wins by submission hold and one by head kick, suggesting a greater variety of skills than Carwin has displayed so far. Among Rothwell's victims were a recent TUF winner, a current UFC Light-heavyweight, and an aging, former UFC Heavyweight champion.

 

Yet Rothwell didn't have anything like the fan-club that Carwin has. In his UFC debut, 80% of ~4800 respondents on an MMA predictions site picked Rothwell to lose to Velasquez. And lose he did, even worse than most people expected.

 

There are probably some people who can explain their relative opinions of Carwin and Rothwell by breaking down their performances moment-by-moment, but until they do, I'm convinced that for most people it's because Carwin is in the UFC and Rothwell was in the IFL. Is the UFC a better pool of talent than the IFL? Unquestionably, but that fact alone isn't an analytical tool for gauging how good a particular fighter is. And if it were, Carwin wouldn't be rated as highly as he is, because of his 11 opponents, only 1 of them is judged to currently be UFC-caliber, 3 were UFC washouts, and 7 of them have never fought in the UFC.

 

(If you're familiar with Elo scores, Rothwell's peak score - so, before his losses to Arlovski and Velasquez - was 1988. Carwin's peak score, also his current score, is 1916. Carwin's Strength-of-Schedule score is 1603 and Rothwell's is 1608, but of course that includes the guys Rothwell was unable to defeat. Elo scores present all sorts of questions when they're applied to MMA fighters, but they're an interesting analysis of a fighter's record.)

 

((And since this thread is supposed to be be about Fedor, his Elo score is currently 2300 - the highest in the history of the sport. His SoS score is 1754, which places him 14th among the Top 25 P4P fighters. If you're wondering, BJ Penn has had the hardest career, by Elo scores, with a strength-of-schedule score of 1867.))

[iloveme8]

I think Carwin's displayed a lot of skills and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he loses. Same thing with Rogers. I think Carwin is better but I'll never try and justify it, because they're both, for all intents and purposes, undefeated.

 

That doesn't make me some sort of crazy UFC fan (I think both Lesnar and Mir are definitely overrated and I haven't seen enough of Cain to judge), I just happen to be high on this particular fighter.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm not remotely buying that Fedor is on the same planet of recognition among casual fans or non-MMA fans as the UFC big draws.

 

If you want to talk PPV numbers, let's talk about Fedo'rs ability to draw.

 

The Pride Las Vegas show drew an esimated 40k buys.

Bodog PPV less than 20k

Affliction drew substantially under 100k for each of their PPVs.

 

Let's say Cote/Anderson drew 300k. That is well over 3x Fedor's greatest contribution to a PPV card. And that's basically the worst PPV draw in recent UFC memory.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

It's not particularly fair for you to cite Rogers' fight vs. Fedor as an example of why he's better when Carwin has never been given that kind of fight. I think Carwin wouldn't have any trouble going into the second round with Fedor and mounting a serious offense. Frankly, I don't know how you can just crap on a guy who's longest fight ever was two minutes, eleven seconds. If you want to say Rogers' victory over Arlovski was more impressive than Carwin's over Gonzaga, go ahead, that's your opinion. I'm not going to try and convince you why Carwin is better, because a loss to Fedor doesn't really count as a loss in my mind, so their resumes appear very similar to me. Nevertheless, I don't think Carwin gets enough credit and I think he'll prove what he is against Mir (who I believe to be overrated).

Carwin's ability to finish his fights in time he does is more than impressive. However, celebrating that on it's own is ridiculous. You have to consider who did it against. His opposition wasn't very good and Gonzaga doesn't even begin to compare to Arlovski.

[Guest]

Carwin's ability to finish his fights in time he does is more than impressive. However, celebrating that on it's own is ridiculous. You have to consider who did it against. His opposition wasn't very good and Gonzaga doesn't even begin to compare to Arlovski.

 

This is the same Arlovski who got blitzed by Brett Rogers and beat TWICE by Tim Sylvia right?

[Guest]

This is the same Arlovski who got blitzed by Brett Rogers and beat TWICE by Tim Sylvia right?

 

 

wait...you're saying arlovski isnt better than gonzaga?

 

the SAME gonzaga who got beat down by werdum? the SAME werdum that lost to arlovski?

 

see what i did there?

 

i will say that i think gonzaga and arlovski are pretty close in terms of skills. i wouldnt say you cant compare them, but gonzaga has been out of the top 10 for awhile. arlovski was up pretty high for a good while.

 

 

MMA is interesting, in that people give fighters "credit" for things they haven't done. That's extremely unusual in pro sports. Carwin is a good example. He gets a level of hype that really exceeds his accomplishments.

 

From September '05 to September '07, Ben Rothwell enjoyed a 13-fight winning streak, with 11 finishes (9 of them in the first round). He had two wins by submission hold and one by head kick, suggesting a greater variety of skills than Carwin has displayed so far. Among Rothwell's victims were a recent TUF winner, a current UFC Light-heavyweight, and an aging, former UFC Heavyweight champion.

 

Yet Rothwell didn't have anything like the fan-club that Carwin has. In his UFC debut, 80% of ~4800 respondents on an MMA predictions site picked Rothwell to lose to Velasquez. And lose he did, even worse than most people expected.

 

There are probably some people who can explain their relative opinions of Carwin and Rothwell by breaking down their performances moment-by-moment, but until they do, I'm convinced that for most people it's because Carwin is in the UFC and Rothwell was in the IFL. Is the UFC a better pool of talent than the IFL? Unquestionably, but that fact alone isn't an analytical tool for gauging how good a particular fighter is. And if it were, Carwin wouldn't be rated as highly as he is, because of his 11 opponents, only 1 of them is judged to currently be UFC-caliber, 3 were UFC washouts, and 7 of them have never fought in the UFC.

 

(If you're familiar with Elo scores, Rothwell's peak score - so, before his losses to Arlovski and Velasquez - was 1988. Carwin's peak score, also his current score, is 1916. Carwin's Strength-of-Schedule score is 1603 and Rothwell's is 1608, but of course that includes the guys Rothwell was unable to defeat. Elo scores present all sorts of questions when they're applied to MMA fighters, but they're an interesting analysis of a fighter's record.)

 

((And since this thread is supposed to be be about Fedor, his Elo score is currently 2300 - the highest in the history of the sport. His SoS score is 1754, which places him 14th among the Top 25 P4P fighters. If you're wondering, BJ Penn has had the hardest career, by Elo scores, with a strength-of-schedule score of 1867.))

 

best post in the thread so far. everyone should real it, heh. basically sums up what i said all along. people somehow considered carwin this monster when he really hasnt done all that much. being in the ufc doesnt automatically make you good. neil wain made it to the ufc...is he good? is dan evensen some beast? no...neither one of them is. the ufc hype machine can do a lot, but carwin doesnt deserve anymore hype than brett rogers. it was hilarious how everyone bitched when they found out fedor was fighting brett rogers, but everyone saw carwin as a legit fight for lesnar.

[iloveme8]

Carwin's ability to finish his fights in time he does is more than impressive. However, celebrating that on it's own is ridiculous. You have to consider who did it against. His opposition wasn't very good and Gonzaga doesn't even begin to compare to Arlovski.

 

I'm not celebrating that on its own. I'm just not ready to put an undefeated fighter down in any way. My point was, take out Rogers lost to a fighter so strong that the loss basically doesn't matter. Rogers performed basically exactly at my expectations, so I think that fight doesn't need to be considered when comparing him to Carwin (just for simplicities sake). In essence, that makes them both undefeated with double digit wins and about even quality of opponents. (If you need to include Fedor's fight, you can just consider Rogers as a fighter with one more loss and a slighty stronger opponent quality. Doesn't really matter, IMO).

 

If you discount the Arlovski and Gonzaga fights, the rest of Carwin's opponents are slightly stronger than those of Rogers. Throw those fights in, and Rogers has the slightly stronger opponent quality (with Carwin having one more win). I think they're about equal, on paper. I think Carwin's better, but I'm not going to tell you you're wrong if you think Rogers is. Did Rogers deserve that Fedor fight? Absolutely. And I would love to see Carwin get the same shot. I hope it happens one day.

 

I was excited for Carwin to get a real shot on Lesnar, though I was worried that if he won people might just think Lesnar is overrated (which he is) rather than that Carwin's pretty good. I'm more excited for him to face Mir (who I think is overrated) because I think people are less likely to shit on Mir if he loses, meaning Carwin would get the credit I think he's due.

[Guest]

that works for me, heh. we all have opinions about who is better than who. it's fine that you think carwin is better than rogers. if they fought, i honestly have no idea who would win. i couldnt confidently pick rogers in that fight. my whole problem is that people seem to assume that carwin is better for some reason that doesnt exist. not saying that's what you did...just in general.

 

and i agree that lesnar and mir are both overrated, heh. i will give mir props on his last win, but people are blowing his level of striking out of proportion. it isnt hard to hit a guy who completely has his hands down and is basically there to be hit. herring dropped kongo early too. i dont see anyone hyping up herring's striking.