2016-2017 NBA Discussion

[Guest]

I think they'll stick with Thomas until they find someone they really like. Thomas isn't bad, but I don't think he will be the long term guy at PG in Boston.

 

On another note, as a Pacers fan, this whole Paul George thing frustrates the hell out of me. I would have liked to see him stay, but now that he has announced his "intentions", there is no way they can hold on to him. Trade him and get as much value as possible in return.

At least he was upfront about it and isn't going to do them like Kevin Durant did OKC.

[Jacman]

 

"Not 1, not 2, not 3, etc" - that's not competitive. That's ego thinking championships would come easy. Adversity reveals character. He was quick to abandon ship. Regardless of what you think, this is an unbiased sentiment.

 

You can ask (or google and read/watch) every basketball coach or player that's been around and it's a consensus MJ's work ethic and competitiveness was second to none. Steve Kerr is a good start.

 

I never questioned Lebron's drive, ambition, work ethic, etc. I was replying to a comment and simply stating that MJ and Jerry Rice were in league's of their own, and physical traits or talent, can be defeated by those type of intangibles. Jerry specifically wasn't the fastest or most physically gifted guy, but he was probably the hardest working and one of the most competitive.

 

Also everybody saying MJ played weaker competition... Lebron plays in the Eastern Conference... correct me if I'm wrong... but aren't all the championship contenders in the West? You can make a run at the playoffs in the East with a losing record. Hell, I think Miami did a couple years ago lol.

How is sticking around to play for an awful organization and an awful owner make hid character any better. We all know he would have never won their unless he left. Besides you can't question a guys character based on where they play, Jordan had a great organization and team from the minute he stepped on an NBA floor. Lebron had to go somewhere to find that and that doesn't take away from his character especially not when it comes to adversity. Lebron has faced far more adversity than Jordan ever did and has thrived. Jordan has never had as much media and social media scrutiny and as much hate for going to another team. He's never had his entire legacy questioned over one year, series, gamed. He was never in danger of losing a championship because his team was so much superior. Lebron has had more pressure and expectations on him than anyone before and has thrived. I can't question his character after so much adversity but you can based one decision, fuck off with that logic.

 

Lebron does play in the weaker conference but Jordan played in the weaker league/era period.

[Rambo]

How is sticking around to play for an awful organization and an awful owner make hid character any better. We all know he would have never won their unless he left. Besides you can't question a guys character based on where they play, Jordan had a great organization and team from the minute he stepped on an NBA floor. Lebron had to go somewhere to find that and that doesn't take away from his character especially not when it comes to adversity. Lebron has faced far more adversity than Jordan ever did and has thrived. Jordan has never had as much media and social media scrutiny and as much hate for going to another team. He's never had his entire legacy questioned over one year, series, gamed. He was never in danger of losing a championship because his team was so much superior. Lebron has had more pressure and expectations on him than anyone before and has thrived. I can't question his character after so much adversity but you can based one decision, fuck off with that logic.

 

Lebron does play in the weaker conference but Jordan played in the weaker league/era period.

 

 

I could be wrong, but if I had to guess, you didn't follow basketball when MJ played. You thinking MJ played against a weaker league vs less talent is equivalent to your Skip Bayless comment you made in a previous post.

 

 

Lebron flip flopping between teams doesn't reveal character or say anything about how he deals with adversity... okay lol. I'm not gonna argue with you. When/if the Cavs keep losing in the finals, we'll see what happens. He's undoubtedly matured a bunch since entering the league, so we'll see how it plays out.

[Deuce7]

Lebron does play in the weaker conference but Jordan played in the weaker league/era period.

 

weaker league/era where they actually played defense..............

[Rambo]

 

weaker league/era where they actually played defense..............

 

lol. I don't think he wants to hear that "First Take, Stephen A smith and skip bayless type of shit".

 

 

 

I think Lebron is an incredible athlete. Clear cut Hall of Famer. Stats wise he'll have a better career than MJ. He's just not the competitor that MJ was and MJ's 6 finals appearances with 6 MVP's in 7 years outweigh Lebron's post season efforts/success.

[shortfuse122829]

Lakers trade Mozgov & Russell for Brooke Lopez & #27 pick

 

Knicks may trade Porzingis

 

Hornets acquire Dwight Howard

[shortfuse122829]

Bobcats? I can't keep up with their name but you get the point

[Deuce7]

Lakers trade Mozgov & Russell for Brooke Lopez & #27 pick

 

Knicks may trade Porzingis

 

Hornets acquire Dwight Howard

 

 

Bobcats? I can't keep up with their name but you get the point

 

Thankfully they are no longer the Bobcats.

 

As far as the trades go, Lakers will probably flip that pick, one more pick plus a player to the Pacers for Paul George.

 

If the Knicks trade Porzingis that will only continue their trend towards becoming the worst team in the league (if you don't think they haven't hit that already). I like Phil Jackson as a coach, but he has no clue what's going on with the front office stuff.

 

The Hawks trading Howard is a bit of a surprise, but it definitely means they are going into full rebuild mode.

[JLP]

Lakers are making cap space to assemble the next super team (LeBron, George). This doesnt bode well for the 15-20 franchises that have absolutely no chance of ever putting a championship team together outside of years of tanking combined with lottery luck.

[Rambo]

Lakers are making cap space to assemble the next super team (LeBron, George). This doesnt bode well for the 15-20 franchises that have absolutely no chance of ever putting a championship team together outside of years of tanking combined with lottery luck.

 

LeBron's final streak will end pretty quickly if he goes into the Western conference. Can't picture a situation where that actually happens, but I guess it's possible.

[Mentor]

I really like the move the Lakers made, got rid of the one elephant contract, we got an upgrade on Mosgov for this year and we still ended up with a 28th pick. I do not rate Russell anyway, cant jump, cannot defend, lacks pace, way too relaxed, he can also be very streaky, so this is a fantastic deal for us.

 

I am hearing that the Lakers are offering the 27th + 28th pick + either Clarkson or Randle for George now. I think this move is very good as well for both teams because rumors going around are that the Cav's want to send them Love + someone else or a pick, if he goes there and wins a title, then he will likely renew (that is what i think) and that has double implications because not only we lose out on George, we could potentially lose out on Lebron (who is out of contract next year and it is rumored he wants to move to LA). There is another reason why we should pull off the deal now, if George is a player on our roster this year, it will mean we can sign 2 max players AND THEN renew him on a max deal. We will go over the cap by far, but it will mean we have 3 super star players. Westbrook is also from California and rumors are that he could want to join us, especially if he can create a counter option to the Warriors. A team with George, Lebron, Westbrook should beat up any team in this league, especially if Ball (our projected draft pick) and Ingram prove to be the players we hope the are.

 

If i was the Lakers, i see 3 other moves on the table worth going for, for one, the Knicks are considering offloading Porzingis for the 3rd pick + change to Boston. I would jump on that, offer them the 2nd pick instead + Lopez and see how they react. Obviously the 2nd pick is not worth much more to them because they already know what the Lakers and 76ers will pick, but it is worth a try. Lopez is an elite offensive center and probably one of the best 5-6 in the league, so the second pick and Lopez could be enough for them. I am hearing they want Horford from Boston, so someone like Lopez could be someone they are interested in, both have some range, Lopez is a better offensive player for sure, both can block shots, similar contracts and age.

 

The other move i would do now is offer Randle + Deng for whatever either now or the start of next summer, i think doing that now makes more sense because possibly someone will rank Randle enough to take 3 years of Deng off us (essentially that is what happened when we offloaded Mosgov). If we can get a couple of lower end draft picks or a veteran we can use in rotation next year (but on a lower end contract), then i would do that.

 

Either way, i think the NBA is going down the wrong road, as it has been proven, all these cap restrictions, salary restrictions have lead the players to simply value the organization setup + the roster quality more than tradition or money. Usually players by 27-28 are already swimming in cash, so they team up to create super teams. To me, it is becoming very evident that all these restrictions only serve one purpose and that is to give owners more money, clearly they are not benefiting the players. In fact, due to restrictions to salaries and the caps, players in the NBA now earn most of their money outside of salary, in fact, i made a comparisson to other major sports and the share of top level athletes in those sports make less outside from salary than they do in the NBA (% wise i mean). So, players will end up benefiting more in proporting by playing in bigger market teams. Slowly i see the traditional powerhouses regaining a foothold, while the OKC's of the league will rely on draft picks.

 

I think the NBA should become more like Baseball is setup, i think the regulations there offer plenty of opportunity to small teams to be competitive while you will always have your "favorites". It is not like the big market teams in Baseball are winning the league every year, you get enough variety on the top, however their setup is more player friendly, allows for bigger income potential and also allows for teams different options when trying to build (or rebuild) their franchises. The NBA has way too many restrictions.

[mmagladiators]

Can't honestly say id be all that happy about bringing in Lebron James and making a run.. cause lebron likes to force management to meet his demands. Like making bad trades to win now.. (ex Andrew Wiggins) and hes getting up there in age, and the idea of having a Superstar at the end of his career to beat a younger more talented team like the warriors doesn't seem like the best choice for long term success, but whatever people just want super teams now.. see how well that ended up for the clippers.

[Jacman]

 

weaker league/era where they actually played defense..............

The defense of the 80's and 90's is so highly touted because of their physical nature but if you look at the numbers teams scored far more than they do now and that's without the prevelance of the 3 point shot. So no the defense wasnt superior to today's defense even with more of the ticky tack fouls given out today. Not to mention they didn't play zone back then.

 

When I said he played in a weaker league its true and you can't deny it. It was watered down from the 80's due to expansion so no team could put enough on its roster to compete with those bulls teams. There was one superteam in the 90s and that was MJs bulls. In the decades that followed more super teams and just great teams in general have come along and for the most part lebron has had to face them. Jordan never faced a super team in the 90s and that's why his record is pristine. Even if you think the league wasnt weaker that's fine but can we stop with comparing finals records as if that matters. Its ultimately a team sport and Jordan had probably the strongest ever in an era with no other super teams so his record should look better.

[Mentor]

Can't honestly say id be all that happy about bringing in Lebron James and making a run.. cause lebron likes to force management to meet his demands. Like making bad trades to win now.. (ex Andrew Wiggins) and hes getting up there in age, and the idea of having a Superstar at the end of his career to beat a younger more talented team like the warriors doesn't seem like the best choice for long term success, but whatever people just want super teams now.. see how well that ended up for the clippers.

 

You are right about Lebron however, any team will be willing to take him on for 2-3 years, even at 33y of age. In the team i am mentioning, Wetbrook, George and Porzigis will be the long term future.

[mmagladiators]

 

You are right about Lebron however, any team will be willing to take him on for 2-3 years, even at 33y of age. In the team i am mentioning, Wetbrook, George and Porzigis will be the long term future

 

I got tired of waiting around for a superstar to join, first it was lebron, then dwight, then melo, then westbrook, now paul george. but we will see how it works out

[Jacman]

I'm really glad that Josh Jackson slipped to #4 to the Suns. In my opinion he has a ton of potential and a much higher floor than any other player in the draft and he's a perfect fit for the Suns. Suns need a wing and with Jackson's elite athleticism he fits right in. What I'm most excited about him though is his defense and effort, the Suns are awful defensively so hopefully what Jackson does rubs off a little on the other guys.

 

 

LeBron's final streak will end pretty quickly if he goes into the Western conference. Can't picture a situation where that actually happens, but I guess it's possible.

 

If the Lakers do go for that then I hope they can get another star like Chris Paul because the only way Lebron/George/Ball have a chance at beating the warriors is if Lonzo is everything his dad makes him out to be which I highly doubt he is, at least not this early.

 

I'm honestly not looking forward to the next couple years of basketball outside of watching the young Suns progress. We all know the Warriors are going to win, even if the Cavs get George or Butler I just don't see them beating the Warriors.

[Guest]

The cave need more depth and youth not more stars and they could compete. Put lebron on

[Rambo]

The odds are definitely in the Warriors favor.

 

 

5 v 5 sport will always be more controllable by talent than an 11 on 11 sport.

[Deuce7]

So a few trades that nobody has talked about......

 

Jimmy Butler to the Timberwolves for Zach Lavine & Kris Dunn - What a get for Minnesota. Giving up two young guys who could become good players is hard to do, but when you have a chance to get a proven guy like Butler, of course you make that deal.

 

Chris Paul to the Rockets for Patrick Beverley, Lou Williams and a crap load of other players - I mean what exactly did Houston give up? Their starting PG and back up PG, plus a whole bunch of bench/D-League guys. I get that it's one guy and Paul probably wasn't going to re-sign with the Clips, but what a steal for Houston.

 

Rickey Rubio to the Utah Jazz for a 1st round pick - Leaves Minnesota with only one PG on their roster, but there are a ton of free agent PGs out there this year.

 

Paul George to the Thunder for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis - Wow..........who saw this one coming. Of course we knew George would get moved, but the Thunder? Solid deal on both sides. Thunder get to try and convince George to stay and pair up with Westbrook and the Pacers get some good value in Oladipo (a University of Indiana product) and Sabonis who could become the big man that Indiana desperately needs.

[Mentor]

I think the Butler deal is a good one for both sides, the Bulls get some young talent to build on and Minnesota becomes a playoff level team.

 

I am not sure Paul can / will make the difference for Houston, also it means the ball will likely be out of Harden's hands, i think that is the one thing that helped him last year become an MVP candidate. I cannot see either of those 2 being effective off the ball. Also Houston was a fast paced team, Paul will slower the pace. The Rockets also lost (besides Berverly) Lou Williams, who did not have much time to settle in, but could of become a very effective 6th player on that team. I think both those 2 are a better fit for Houston, not to mention that Paul will be a FA next year, renewing him to a max deal at his age will be a huge risk in my opinion.

 

I also think the Thunder are risking everything this year, the offloaded 2 good young players to get George, but George will 100% be leaving to go to Lakers next year. Even worse is that you just put Westbrook with George, both guys are from LA and there are rumors out there saying that Westbrook could also be up to the idea moving to LA next year when his contract is up for renewal. This will give them 1 year to bond together. I doubt those 2 will be enough to get past GS.

[Jacman]

I think the Butler deal is a good one for both sides, the Bulls get some young talent to build on and Minnesota becomes a playoff level team.

 

I am not sure Paul can / will make the difference for Houston, also it means the ball will likely be out of Harden's hands, i think that is the one thing that helped him last year become an MVP candidate. I cannot see either of those 2 being effective off the ball. Also Houston was a fast paced team, Paul will slower the pace. The Rockets also lost (besides Berverly) Lou Williams, who did not have much time to settle in, but could of become a very effective 6th player on that team. I think both those 2 are a better fit for Houston, not to mention that Paul will be a FA next year, renewing him to a max deal at his age will be a huge risk in my opinion.

 

I also think the Thunder are risking everything this year, the offloaded 2 good young players to get George, but George will 100% be leaving to go to Lakers next year. Even worse is that you just put Westbrook with George, both guys are from LA and there are rumors out there saying that Westbrook could also be up to the idea moving to LA next year when his contract is up for renewal. This will give them 1 year to bond together. I doubt those 2 will be enough to get past GS.

 

The Butler deal was definitely a win win for both teams. Minnesota needs a defensive presence like Butler.

 

As for the Paul to the Rockets trade I'll have to disagree. The Rockets did give up some good players that fit in that system really well but lets face it if you're trying to win those 2 guys aren't gonna be nearly enough. With Paul you get another superstar which can push your chances much further. I do agree that those 2 on paper and historically might not seem like a very good duo but I don't see any harm in taking a year to see what they give you together. If it doesn't work out then you let Paul walk if you see some potential you sign him to a max deal and try to add complimentary pieces and see where they take you.

 

As it stands NBA teams have to make moves that might not make sense because what they have now just won't be enough against GSW. And even if it all works out brilliantly they still probably lose to the Warriors. GSW has changed the game, they're no longer a super team imo they're a dream team and it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. Just gonna keep my head down and wait out these next 3-4 years much like the Trump presidency and hope for better times on the other side. Thank god for Baseball lol.

[Deuce7]

Thank god for Baseball lol.

 

[Mentor]

I totally hate the NBA rules related to cap and so on. One of the worse rules is the minimum cap (in other words you need to pay a minimum amount of money per year), this is another crazy rule. For example, Otto Porter could end up being a max contract player this year. The only reason he is going so high is because some teams need to reach the minimum pay barrier and are more willing to take a risk on someone younger than signing a veteran. Due to the Max roster size rule, some teams cannot simply stack their roster with lower end players to hit the cap, so they have to over pay for someone like Otto just for the sake of it.

 

On the other side of the spectrum, you have players like Durrant basically earning 6-7 million more, due to the cap on salaries. In other words, mid tier players like Mosgov, Deng are essentially earning just 20-30% below what the All Stars are, so the top tier players are underpaid and the mid tier are over paid. If you compare to (lets say), Football/soccer, a top 10 player in the EPL will earn 10x more than a player who is borderline starter. The main reason being is that he is worth significantly more to the team and there is no cap to the wages.

 

In the NBA all these stupid caps are creating a disbalance to the whole system. The league is not more competitive due to it (which is the argument in favor of caps), in fact i can argue that these caps have made the league less competitive because now players earn more outside of salaries, so they care much less about the salary itself and simply join the team which allows them to win a title. I think the comissioner needs to totally revamp the whole system, allow for a lot more flexibility in salaries, remove the caps to wages and salary caps on teams, which will allow bigger market teams to pay bigger salaries. It will mean the lower end teams are less likely to be competitive, but they still have the draft and will receive luxury taxes from the bigger teams.

[Guest]

Where LeBron might go after next season. Lakers or 76ers?

 

http://thebiglead.com/2017/07/06/besides-the-lakers-the-only-team-that-makes-sense-for-lebron-is-the-76ers/

[Mentor]

I think nowhere, but if i was to choose of those i would pick the 76ers in terms of talent, the Lakers are probably the better option in general as i read he has business interests in LA, he will be 33y by next year, so thinking about his options after basketball would make sense.