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weight/speed advantage


chuckw94

fair or unfair  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. does the smaller fighter have an advantage



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Okay guys I have a serious question, recently I've ran into a guy declining a fight because of how much the other guy weighs and how unfair it is(I've ran into this before but it was at a different weight class and maybe around a 10 pound difference if I remember right). So my questions are

 

1. Is it a real thing and can you just out slider him ?

2. With the fight being at 135 what weight should the limit be to cut ?

3. Whats the most fair thing to do in this case(if its a real thing) ?

4. Seems like these smaller fighters would be dominating in all divisions if this was true, unless only a select few know about it ?

 

Please no fighting id just like to do the most fair thing and possibly set up my own personal weight limits when I recruit(I honestly don't give a crap and just look at what division they last fought in).

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that thread was talking just about 5lbs, not the 25lbs that a certain fighter seems to have over all other bantamweights in that division..

That's the thing. For BW its 135 & below just like SHW is 265+.

 

Let's get it out of the way, we're referring to "The Gypsy Prince" Seamus MacNamara (330046).

 

He is fighting well within the perimeters of BW. If he fought in any other division, I obviously would see the issue.

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That's the thing. For BW its 135 & below just like SHW is 265+.

 

Let's get it out of the way, we're referring to "The Gypsy Prince" Seamus MacNamara (330046).

 

He is fighting well within the perimeters of BW. If he fought in any other division, I obviously would see the issue.

I'd fight him.

 

But it's obvious that he might be benefiting from not expanding a lot energy. Scroll to bottom of fights and will notice he always has a good chunk left in the tank compared to opponents

even in 5 round fight he has more than Kurt Verygood despite throwing combos and head kicks which expend more energy.

 

 

You'd think there's be a minimum threshold in place, like all the other build stuff, so maybe there's other factors.

 

but first thing I did was click on his fights and scroll down to post fight stats and compare his energy meter vs opponents and both fighters output.

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The way I see it, is that the design is that lower weight gives more speed and better energy efficiency, while higher weight gives more ko power. At ~155 and lower weights, this balance breaks, because it's much more difficult to get a KO at the lower weights than at the average or higher ones, so the smaller guy has all the advantages without any drawbacks.

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He can go as low as he wants to in this weight class--that's within his right. I can understand managers for wanting to decline the fight, as well, if they think being smaller is an advantage. It's one of those gray area subjects.

 

So, I am not sure I would say that is "within his right". It depends on the org owner, and what other fighters think as far as accepting fights with him. I can totally understand fighters not wanting to take fights with someone severely underweight, because of the inherent advantages that are involved. I also think, an org owner is within his rights to want fighters in each division to be at a minimum of the weight for that weight class.

 

I don't buy the 135 is like 265+ argument. The 265+ division is literally for anyone over 265, it says it right in its name. The 135 division is not a 135- division. Especially with the speed and energy advantages. I also think it is within an orgs right to say they are completely ok with that, so I am not 100% against it either, I just dont think its equivalent.

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So, I am not sure I would say that is "within his right". It depends on the org owner, and what other fighters think as far as accepting fights with him. I can totally understand fighters not wanting to take fights with someone severely underweight, because of the inherent advantages that are involved. I also think, an org owner is within his rights to want fighters in each division to be at a minimum of the weight for that weight class.

 

I don't buy the 135 is like 265+ argument. The 265+ division is literally for anyone over 265, it says it right in its name. The 135 division is not a 135- division. Especially with the speed and energy advantages. I also think it is within an orgs right to say they are completely ok with that, so I am not 100% against it either, I just dont think its equivalent.

In orgs where there are clearly defined rules and expectations regarding minimum weight--yes, one absolutely should follow the regs. If there are no defined rules and expectations, then it's difficult to argue that one is outside those rules.

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IIRC the whole issue came around the time saunas were introduced into the game and body gassing became horrible. At the smaller divisions the advantage is very minimal, if any. However at the higher levels (LHW and above) the advantage was very clear.

 

The theory behind it was that lighter fighters used less energy than the heavier fighter due to the weight cut but it might just be that the lighter fighter uses less energy period and nothing to do with the weight cut (this was post body gassing changes). Chris used to argue it was speed, however me and fuse figured that since speed is already in the games code (this isn't inside knowledge, speed is something you train on your fighter therefore will be in the games code), it would make zero sense for there to be a secondary speed value. However, we know that lighter fighters use less energy than heavier fighters and that is implemented. The power you got from being the heavier weight was not as efficient as the energy conserved by the smaller fighter.

 

I always figured that the lower weights weren't as bad due to the weight disparity not being too much. In some fights at the lower weight class I often felt that having the heavier fighter was more of an advantage because head punches count so much more in point scoring. Where as at heavyweight, you always hit the body so you could body gas the opponent. So the power/energy trade off was actually in the favour of the heavier fighter at the smaller weight class.

 

This is just the theory I used when it came to explaining the phenomenon, it might be complete horse shit but it was the easiest way I could think to explain it and you can see the difference in energy values as you look at the different fights.

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In orgs where there are clearly defined rules and expectations regarding minimum weight, then one absolutely has to follow them. If there are no defined rules and expectations, then it's difficult to argue that one is outside those rules.

 

Like you said, it is grey area, but in my eyes, 135 is just as defined as 145, and 155. There are no rules saying you can't fight at 111 lbs in the 155 division. The only difference is there are weight classes below it, but it still doesnt state anywhere that there is a minimum weight, just the same as 135. It is just accepted because there exist smaller weight classes, but it's still not defined.

 

265+ is different because it literally says "plus" in it's name, therefore defining it as anything greater than 265. 135 is exactly what it states, the 135 weight class. Just because there isnt a 115 lb division, doesnt mean that 135 is where those guys should fight. In my eyes anyway. It's all really a matter of opinion though

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Like you said, it is grey area, but in my eyes, 135 is just as defined as 145, and 155. There are no rules saying you can't fight at 111 lbs in the 155 division. The only difference is there are weight classes below it, but it still doesnt state anywhere that there is a minimum weight, just the same as 135. It is just accepted because there exist smaller weight classes, but it's still not defined.

 

265+ is different because it literally says "plus" in it's name, therefore defining it as anything greater than 265. 135 is exactly what it states, the 135 weight class. Just because there isnt a 115 lb division, doesnt mean that 135 is where those guys should fight. In my eyes anyway. It's all really a matter of opinion though

I think this could easily be addressed by instituting rules within an org, especially if there is enough discontent about it.

 

I am not disagreeing with you; stating objectively that if there aren't rules, people can't be held to them. I have no dog in this fight, if anything, I thought the scrawny fuck should have been put on weight gain, considered mentioning this to the org owner, but I went with the logic that unless there is a requirement for him to be of certain weight, I have no leg to stand on.

 

Also, 135 is not defined, at least not in writing that I see anywhere; on the contrary, some orgs say that in order to fight at 145, one has to weigh no less than 145, whereas 135 is just assumed that managers will stick with something reasonable.

 

TLDR: If there are recurrent concerns, implement a written rule (at org level) to keep things civil and uniform, this will resolve the issue and avoid potential bickering. Some managers will not adhere to the expected, yet unofficial norms if you leave it up to them, and there is an amazingly simple solution for that. Dont want to add weight to your fighter? Cool, but you won't fight at 111lbs at 155, you have the option of adding weight or fighting at appropriate class (Class A is x to y lbs, Class B is...with understanding that 135 class is defined as ranging from x lbs - however many lbs a fighter can weigh pre-cut). No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

P.S. Shit, TLDR ended up being just as long as the main body. Fail.

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yeah what Aylib said.

 

I understand 135 being the lowest existing division in Tycoon but the only reason we say "well you can be as light as you want" is because 125 does not exist.

 

What is the lightest you can create a character?

 

Isn`t it 135 ? Then they cut from there right? down to about 122 or so?

 

Seamus must have cut weight to get to 111 walking weight. If the data shows this gives him an unfair advantage maybe institute a minimum 125 walking weight for fighters to challenge for a belt?

 

Good discussion.

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This is as nuanced of a conversation as I thought it would be. I 100% agree this one division in particular is a grey area when it comes to the weight advantage issue.

However, the poll question itself Chuck isn't really useful being that this was already discussed in a previous thread Ramirez shared (of which I agreed on the lighter advantage).

 

Just for a little background, my initial intention was to mimic what I was doing with Simon Udovich but the opposite. Biggest & smallest fighter in MMATycoon.

Udovich I've had on weight gain every day for his entire career (much to his continued detriment lol). Why? Just for fun. Makes for an enjoyable theatre of the mind when reading his fight commentary as it does with Seamus.

I started weight loss for Seamus MacNamara & once he hit his current weight I realized something that should've been obvious from the beginning: Seamus eventually would hit a weight that wouldn't even make sense anymore (i.e. 50, 40, 30 lbs etc) so I just stopped.

 

Anyway back to the actual discussion, I still take a hard stance that I'm not doing anything inherently wrong with this fighter. He'll always fight in the bantamweight division as I see that's the only division he should be a part of (unless an org has made a weight restriction for the division then I would find another org to join). Heck, I'm sure Blake Phoenix could back me up in saying that a super fight fell through between Seamus & Vadim Golovkin because at the time, Vadim couldn't make the 135 cut & it didn't feel right for Seamus to potentially be the 145 lb champ, a division he should be no part of. This weight has not made him invincible, Aylib & few others can attest to that.

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This is as nuanced of a conversation as I thought it would be. I 100% agree this one division in particular is a grey area when it comes to the weight advantage issue.

However, the poll question itself Chuck isn't really useful being that this was already discussed in a previous thread Ramirez shared (of which I agreed on the lighter advantage).

 

Just for a little background, my initial intention was to mimic what I was doing with Simon Udovich but the opposite. Biggest & smallest fighter in MMATycoon.

Udovich I've had on weight gain every day for his entire career (much to his continued detriment lol). Why? Just for fun. Makes for an enjoyable theatre of the mind when reading his fight commentary as it does with Seamus.

I started weight loss for Seamus MacNamara & once he hit his current weight I realized something that should've been obvious from the beginning: Seamus eventually would hit a weight that wouldn't even make sense anymore (i.e. 50, 40, 30 lbs etc) so I just stopped.

 

Anyway back to the actual discussion, I still take a hard stance that I'm not doing anything inherently wrong with this fighter. He'll always fight in the bantamweight division as I see that's the only division he should be a part of (unless an org has made a weight restriction for the division then I would find another org to join). Heck, I'm sure Blake Phoenix could back me up in saying that a super fight fell through between Seamus & Vadim Golovkin because at the time, Vadim couldn't make the 135 cut & it didn't feel right for Seamus to potentially be the 145 lb champ, a division he should be no part of. This weight has not made him invincible, Aylib & few others can attest to that.

 

Agreed, the conversation on this thread has been outstanding. And honestly, I dont think there is a right or wrong. As an org owner that Seamus fought in, I didnt have written rules, but we had discussed fight options, and the weights, and both agreed, very cordially, that maybe another org might be best as, even though I dont have written rules, I am on the other side of the fence. And you still have a couple fighters in my org in other weight classes, and the relationship has been great.

 

I honestly think there probably isnt a wrong answer here, and it's on the org owner and potential managers who would be accepting fights to decide how they want to approach it.

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This is as nuanced of a conversation as I thought it would be. I 100% agree this one division in particular is a grey area when it comes to the weight advantage issue.

However, the poll question itself Chuck isn't really useful being that this was already discussed in a previous thread Ramirez shared (of which I agreed on the lighter advantage).

 

Just for a little background, my initial intention was to mimic what I was doing with Simon Udovich but the opposite. Biggest & smallest fighter in MMATycoon.

Udovich I've had on weight gain every day for his entire career (much to his continued detriment lol). Why? Just for fun. Makes for an enjoyable theatre of the mind when reading his fight commentary as it does with Seamus.

I started weight loss for Seamus MacNamara & once he hit his current weight I realized something that should've been obvious from the beginning: Seamus eventually would hit a weight that wouldn't even make sense anymore (i.e. 50, 40, 30 lbs etc) so I just stopped.

 

Anyway back to the actual discussion, I still take a hard stance that I'm not doing anything inherently wrong with this fighter. He'll always fight in the bantamweight division as I see that's the only division he should be a part of (unless an org has made a weight restriction for the division then I would find another org to join). Heck, I'm sure Blake Phoenix could back me up in saying that a super fight fell through between Seamus & Vadim Golovkin because at the time, Vadim couldn't make the 135 cut & it didn't feel right for Seamus to potentially be the 145 lb champ, a division he should be no part of. This weight has not made him invincible, Aylib & few others can attest to that.

 

Also agree, that the poll question, as worded, probably isn't nuanced enough to get the feedback Chuck is actually looking for.

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Generally fighters are within 5-10 lbs of each other and in that case tactics can dictate advantages but Seamus is an outlier for the most part and seems to gain an advantage at 111 lbs. In my opinion orgs should specify weight ranges as Randall said.

 

For my grapplers I like to use the 5 pounds under for the lighter weight classes but 24 pounds under is just trying to achieve ninja like speed and counters at that point lol. I wouldn't accept fight vs a guy that is 24 pounds less than one of my fighters unless it was middleweight or heavyweight.

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This is as nuanced of a conversation as I thought it would be. I 100% agree this one division in particular is a grey area when it comes to the weight advantage issue.

However, the poll question itself Chuck isn't really useful being that this was already discussed in a previous thread Ramirez shared (of which I agreed on the lighter advantage).

 

Just for a little background, my initial intention was to mimic what I was doing with Simon Udovich but the opposite. Biggest & smallest fighter in MMATycoon.

Udovich I've had on weight gain every day for his entire career (much to his continued detriment lol). Why? Just for fun. Makes for an enjoyable theatre of the mind when reading his fight commentary as it does with Seamus.

I started weight loss for Seamus MacNamara & once he hit his current weight I realized something that should've been obvious from the beginning: Seamus eventually would hit a weight that wouldn't even make sense anymore (i.e. 50, 40, 30 lbs etc) so I just stopped.

 

Anyway back to the actual discussion, I still take a hard stance that I'm not doing anything inherently wrong with this fighter. He'll always fight in the bantamweight division as I see that's the only division he should be a part of (unless an org has made a weight restriction for the division then I would find another org to join). Heck, I'm sure Blake Phoenix could back me up in saying that a super fight fell through between Seamus & Vadim Golovkin because at the time, Vadim couldn't make the 135 cut & it didn't feel right for Seamus to potentially be the 145 lb champ, a division he should be no part of. This weight has not made him invincible, Aylib & few others can attest to that.

 

I'm going to be doing an experiment and writing a forum soon to see whether heavier wrestle boxer fighters and using the sauna to see if the advantage from being big in a smaller weight class will aid a fighter that already has KO power and a larger weight advantage. I'm an advocate for people that like to go low in weight because fighters that are grapplers have a disadvantage because high escapes & defensive grappling pretty much nullifies a wrestler or submission artist unless that grappler has intelligence to couple with it. I don't think it a clear cut yes or no answer whether or not a fighter can go lighter or heavier imo. That is why most people that hate fighters that go 5+ under the weight class create average height fighters with their weight right at the weight class, for example a 170 fighter that weighs 170 that is 5'11. Again this is a gray area conversation though.

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