Rambo Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 The ground game is total shit. Yes, we all know the ground game has been off and inconsistent at best. It has it's ups and downs. This is evidence that the ground game is utterly fucking broken. To the worst degree I've probably ever seen, give the fact I know the fighters secondaries, primaries, and sliders set in this fight. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentarypbp.php?FTID=873515 Elite Wrestling Red belt vs Remarkable Wrestling Blue Belt Brick Tamland has elite everything related to wrestling. Elite physicals. Elite TDs, Trans, Subs, Def grap, and every physical is elite. I was set to 80% aggro and 70% finish with 50% advance position/sub attempt. Stick position = mount. Not only did my fighter, a red belt with elite subs and elite flex, fail to submit a blue belt.. the remarkable wrestler escaped when he was mounted by an elite wrestler with far superior BJJ skill. http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/escape2.gif Daily somehow manages to escape the mount and get back to his feet! So many facets of this QFC fight can show examples of how the ground game is broken. From ground scoring, sub efficiency, escapes, takedown efficiency (arguably, 5/33 TD's landed for elite wrestler, elite takedowns, elite strength, agility/speed, etc. vs remarkable wrestler), etc. Show me one fight where a double Elite Striker was this ineffective against a Remarkable/Respectable Striker. Mike's top priority should be fixing this horrid ground game. I've seen so many bad examples in the past, this by far has to be the worst. honestly, what aspect of the ground game isn't broken? Ground scoring is clearly waaaay off. TD's clearly don't factor for much. Sub attempts apparently defender gets more points for defending subs than the aggressor... 10 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyRose Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 "Very high chance to succeed at particular move" does not mean 100%. Surprises happen in the real world all the time. Yeah, you should win that exchange 98 times out of a 100. But you didn't. No reason to bitch about it. Try not spamming takedowns like a noob and see what happens next time. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakePhoenix Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Strikes attempted by Chris Karter's fighter = 0 http://i.imgur.com/i8zdgdy.jpg 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 I've been bitching about it for months and months. Nothing is happening to fix it. I've given up and lost most of my passion for the game. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 I have to admit it but after reading that fight and giving it a scrutinous eye you can clearly see that most of the fight was spent on the ground. That being said you did not use the best ground tactics for the opponent you faced. But that does not excuse the fault in the engine/scoring which seems clear. That fighter must have great hiddens though to be able to have survived with such a high level grappler for so long on the ground, namely Heart. Lastly I do not know how how escapes work at all, the dude had 0 ground moves and was able to escape many times in the fight... Wha...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duphus Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Not saying I agree with it, but you likely gave away all the points you scored on the ground back to the opponent with all the failed TD attempts. Thus when he got a few counter strikes during a round he ended up ahead on points. The sad part is if you would have been on bottom you probably would have gotten the sub. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duphus Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Lastly I do not know how how escapes work at all, the dude had 0 ground moves and was able to escape many times in the fight... Wha...? 100% stand up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwad12345 Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Lol 80% ground aggro? I dont think I've ever gone that aggressive on the ground. What a noob. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 From what I have seen, there is some wrong stuff in the ground game making it unfair to grapplers. First, I'd say that defensive grappling looks too OP as a skill - once a fighter gets it to elite then GNP isn't landing, there are plenty of counter-transition opportunities and a striker with elite def grap and some transitions can dominate a ground fight just by counter-transitions. I think there is no need at all to put submissions into this conversation, because it is so so rare to see a sub at elite level. Second, escapes skill looks even more OP, because I really doubt all those strikers managed to train their escapes to elite with the skill cap. But they still landing with high success and I think that a better grappler should be able to maintain the fight on the ground from the top position(at least for a while). Another thing about escapes is that it seems they are scored ridiculously high when it comes to decision outcome. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted May 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 "Very high chance to succeed at particular move" does not mean 100%. Surprises happen in the real world all the time. Yeah, you should win that exchange 98 times out of a 100. But you didn't. No reason to bitch about it. Try not spamming takedowns like a noob and see what happens next time. Let's tell Floyd Mayweather not to spam punches vs Conor McGregor. A double elite striker going 5/33 on head punches vs a shorter Remarkable/Respectable striker - that type of inefficiency is impossible with that skill gap even with predicting sliders. I think the same standard/criteria/efficiency should apply to wrestling and bjj in this game. When you're an Olympic caliber wrestler with a red belt and physically gifted elite level athlete, you spam takedowns. They're usually pretty effective (see Ben Askren, Rick Hawn, Mark Coleman, Henry Cejudo). How ineffective can wrestling be? How often you think Wonderboy would stop GSP from taking him down? I've been bitching about it for months and months. Nothing is happening to fix it. I've given up and lost most of my passion for the game. Needs fixed/tweaked/improved. You can't have a successful legitimate MMA game when aspects of MMA in the engine are neglected/broken. Lol 80% ground aggro? I dont think I've ever gone that aggressive on the ground. What a noob. Probably first fight ever seen outside of TWGC without ref stand up. Not saying I agree with it, but you likely gave away all the points you scored on the ground back to the opponent with all the failed TD attempts. Thus when he got a few counter strikes during a round he ended up ahead on points. The sad part is if you would have been on bottom you probably would have gotten the sub. The ground scoring doesn't make sense. If a fighter is getting points for defending takedowns, does a wrestler get points for preventing a stand up? No points for attempting subs... Aggro/Dominant position on the ground... if you defend 8 takedowns in a row in the first minute, and a fighter finally lands a TD, and if fighter that lands TD is on top of the opponent 80% of the round... who scored more points? does a fighter gain any points for being active aggressor/control/dominant position? It needs tweaked. Fighters have a higher % of getting a sub with opponent on top in guard, than they do from dominant position in mount. The loss isn't what bothers me it's the blatantly broken scoring and system involved with the other half of fighting in MMA. Knowing the sliders, skills, stats involved with an elite wrestler vs a 195 cm remarkable wrestler... I have a lot more insight than usual on the mechanics behind the scene of the result. I don't agree with it, but I agree even less with the fight scoring. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poraan Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 Ground game itself is really boring. Either you cannot even get fight on the ground or you lay and pray win easily. Its just totally annoiying to have wrestler when you know that one move decides so much on whole fight. Grappler vs grappler fights are even more boring. Its just basically totally pointless and 3 rounds arent never enought to decide whos really better. Totally pure luck. I think that gnp damage slider and gnp landing boost have made gnp from position like top guard better So theres some hope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpierrecanada Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 Yeah I've pretty much just given up on the ground game and went to trying to master the stand up sliders which surprisingly worked well for me finally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 I thought I read a mail where Mike was going to open up orgs to do just ground fighting? Maybe a few tweaks should be looked into before this takes place? From the sounds of it If tweaks dont happen Im not sure a ground org can survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 I think the ground game does need work, however previous attempts have no helped at all or helped very little. We have significant SERIOUS issues in this game which need fixing, fiddling around with the ground game or pointless things like capping the physicals when there is so many things stacked up, i think it is a total waste of time. I would say that in general the fighting part and org part of the game are the better parts which work adequate enough, even the ranking system seems more or less acceptable as of late. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 I think the ground game does need work, however previous attempts have no helped at all or helped very little. We have significant SERIOUS issues in this game which need fixing, fiddling around with the ground game or pointless things like capping the physicals when there is so many things stacked up, i think it is a total waste of time. I would say that in general the fighting part and org part of the game are the better parts which work adequate enough, even the ranking system seems more or less acceptable as of late. Yeah, the 1/3 of the fight engine which obviously has issues should be totally ignored. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 I think the ground game does need work, however previous attempts have no helped at all or helped very little. We have significant SERIOUS issues in this game which need fixing, fiddling around with the ground game or pointless things like capping the physicals when there is so many things stacked up, i think it is a total waste of time. I would say that in general the fighting part and org part of the game are the better parts which work adequate enough, even the ranking system seems more or less acceptable as of late. It's not fiddling around with the ground game, it's about saving the game by restoring some balance. Striking tycoon is fucking annoying and boring. The engine does not need to be rebuild, just do some tweaks so that it's sensible again. Any other update is pointless if this is not done. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelPenn Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 The ground game is total shit. Yes, we all know the ground game has been off and inconsistent at best. It has it's ups and downs. This is evidence that the ground game is utterly fucking broken. To the worst degree I've probably ever seen, give the fact I know the fighters secondaries, primaries, and sliders set in this fight. http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentarypbp.php?FTID=873515 Elite Wrestling Red belt vs Remarkable Wrestling Blue Belt Brick Tamland has elite everything related to wrestling. Elite physicals. Elite TDs, Trans, Subs, Def grap, and every physical is elite. I was set to 80% aggro and 70% finish with 50% advance position/sub attempt. Stick position = mount. Not only did my fighter, a red belt with elite subs and elite flex, fail to submit a blue belt.. the remarkable wrestler escaped when he was mounted by an elite wrestler with far superior BJJ skill. http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/escape2.gif Daily somehow manages to escape the mount and get back to his feet! So many facets of this QFC fight can show examples of how the ground game is broken. From ground scoring, sub efficiency, escapes, takedown efficiency (arguably, 5/33 TD's landed for elite wrestler, elite takedowns, elite strength, agility/speed, etc. vs remarkable wrestler), etc. Show me one fight where a double Elite Striker was this ineffective against a Remarkable/Respectable Striker. Mike's top priority should be fixing this horrid ground game. I've seen so many bad examples in the past, this by far has to be the worst. honestly, what aspect of the ground game isn't broken? Ground scoring is clearly waaaay off. TD's clearly don't factor for much. Sub attempts apparently defender gets more points for defending subs than the aggressor... Yes sir, spot on. I can remember having elite wrestlers not get a take down on Strong wrestlers and it would be explained to me that spamming was predicted so the low level wrestler could stop my elite wrestler. This is just wrong the difference between skill sets should be so great that a strong wrestler could not stop or handle an elite wrestler in any area in wrestling. Game members would tell me that with High school wrestling experience they could stop Hendricks or GSP from taking them down if they knew it was coming. This is wrong and needs to change in many ways . A strong wrestler, lets say is a great county champion who has great physical attributes. While an Elite wrestler is an Olympian competing on a would wide level. The difference in skill set here should be so different that it would not really be a competition but an educational lesson for the strong wrestler. Now a Red belt BJJ fighter vs a Blue belt should be the same. The red belt should be able to play with the blue belt at will and do as he / she likes to the blue belt. The skill set should be so vast that it would be a joke of a fight or an educational lesson for the blue belt. Its like Daniel-son kicking Mr Miyagi's ass when they first meet, its just not happening. Please fix the ground game in all areas Mike. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyRose Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 Or maybe you all just need to git gud and stop spamming takedowns like one-dimensional noobs. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted May 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 Or maybe you all just need to git gud and stop spamming takedowns like one-dimensional noobs. Stop spamming punches like noob. It's not fiddling around with the ground game, it's about saving the game by restoring some balance. Striking tycoon is fucking annoying and boring. The engine does not need to be rebuild, just do some tweaks so that it's sensible again. Any other update is pointless if this is not done. The game needs balance. Wrestling efficiency needs to be on par with striking efficiency. If Remarkable striker can't effectively dodge punches from elite striker, a remarkable wrestler shouldn't be able to effectively stop TD's * * unless there's a significant physical / build advantage. Obviously a fighter with elite balance and elite strength should do pretty well vs anybody with mediocre strength, etc. with right secondaries to support. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 Or maybe you all just need to git gud and stop spamming takedowns like one-dimensional noobs. Spamming takedowns shouldnt work good but then why spamming escapes works so good? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimCornette Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 Spamming takedowns shouldnt work good but then why spamming escapes works so good? Because spamming takedowns would get you KO'd by an uppercut or knee. You would also gas within a round, if not sooner. How often do you see guys do nothing but shoot takedowns in a UFC fight? He misses a takedown, then immediately shoots another, and another? Never. It isn't uncommon to see a guy get taken down and do nothing but focus on standing up/getting back to his feet. Spamming escapes just means you're looking to get up off of your back, sitting in halfguard with an underhook looking for your opportunity to get up isn't problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyRose Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 Spamming takedowns shouldnt work good but then why spamming escapes works so good? In my experience, it doesn't. Even if it happened to me I admit, I'd be pissed, but my response would be to gameplan for it, not MIKE YOU NEED TO CHANGE THE GAME REEEEEEEE 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 In my experience, it doesn't. Even if it happened to me I admit, I'd be pissed, but my response would be to gameplan for it, not MIKE YOU NEED TO CHANGE THE GAME REEEEEEEE Ignore CK raging after his loss. Some experienced managers are pointing out some serious flaws of the ground game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannetosen Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 i for one am thankful for billy rose, a man whose best fighter whores qfcs, and his smug insights into top level fights 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted May 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2017 Because spamming takedowns would get you KO'd by an uppercut or knee. You would also gas within a round, if not sooner. How often do you see guys do nothing but shoot takedowns in a UFC fight? He misses a takedown, then immediately shoots another, and another? Never. It isn't uncommon to see a guy get taken down and do nothing but focus on standing up/getting back to his feet. Spamming escapes just means you're looking to get up off of your back, sitting in halfguard with an underhook looking for your opportunity to get up isn't problematic. Since you can't use feints to set up TD, 'spamming' and selecting 100% on slider setting isn't that far off. There are levels and stages of takedowns IRL. in this game it's a simple 1 move = 1 dice roll, pass or fail. irl you shoot for td, you have leg, fighter doesn't go down, he's bouncing around, fighter keeps trying to drive him down, fighter stays on feet, push against cage, constantly persistent in taking fighter down. we see it all the time. 1 TD in an MMA fight is more often than not multiple (Takedown) attempts at dragging/putting/getting the guy down. Matt Hughes GSP Chael Sonnen Mark Coleman Yushin Okami Jon Fitch Ben Askren Travis Lutter Travis Lutter Ryan Hall 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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